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Posted Feb 17, 2009

An (opt-in) #plone logging experiment

by Erik Rose

Help the hapless searching newbies of the world by opting to having your questions and answers on the #plone IRC channel logged for future reference.

[Update: Since the #plone topic is linking here, here are the log archives. Today’s log is always at http://weblion.psu.edu/plonelogs/today.]

It’s no secret that the Plone community is locked in a continual and heroic battle to provide complete, up-to-date documentation. In other projects where the code outruns the docs, IRC logs of clueful users and contributors act as a stopgap. For example, I used to do a lot with PEAK, and logs of its main developer were invaluable. Plone is in a similar position, and the searchable logs of our #weblion channel frequently come in handy.

Every day, the community sprays huge amounts of knowledge all over the #plone IRC channel, and it is awesome. However, it isn’t preserved for Google nor for anyone who didn’t happen to be in the channel at the time. Offers to log #plone have drawn enthusiasm from some and trepidation from others, as some people value the privacy of what they say to their few hundred closest friends.

So here’s a bit of an experiment: opt-in logging.

For the past month, a few generous fellow Plonistas have helped me try this out, and so far, so good. See some representative results here. Logging on an opt-in basis, I figure, should make everyone happy (though I’m sure somebody will prove me wrong). If you don’t want to be logged, you don’t have to do anything; nothing you say will ever make it into the transcripts. However, if we can get a quorum of the community’s guiding lights to opt in, we’ll gain a whole new body of Googleable knowledge without having to do any additional work.

Join the experiment

Want to give it a shot and help plug some of the holes in the logs? Type this into your IRC client:

/msg SnarfBot logging on #plone

Even if you’re not a Plone supergenius, your contributions are reallyreallyreally valuable: an answer from a supergenius is much more useful when it’s preceded by the question.

If you change your mind later, you can always say...

/msg SnarfBot logging off #plone

Or, if you would like to opt in but occasionally need to curse a shadowy and retributive entity without fear of reprisal...

[nolog] I am going to steal into the CIA headquarters and paint their staplers pink!

Logging is keyed by nickname, and it’s smart enough to know that Whoody, Whoody_ and Whoody|lunch are the same person.

Where’s da logs?

So glad you asked! http://weblion.psu.edu/plonelogs. They’re still pretty sparse; we need many more people to opt in!

I’m wide open to suggestions, this being an experiment and all; just post below, and you’ll have my thanks for the loan of your brain. Finally, a hearty thanks goes to current and future opters-in: you’ve helped bootstrap a new source of Plone documentation!

Document Actions

very cool!

Posted by Jon Stahl at Feb 18, 2009 02:18 AM
This is a really smart approach, thanks for setting this up! I'm opting in right now.

Woohoo!

Posted by Erik Rose at Feb 18, 2009 11:29 AM
And thanks for the mention in the channel topic!

Some suggestions

Posted by Alexander Limi at Feb 18, 2009 03:35 AM
I theoretically like this approach, as the people that are useful can opt in, and spam + new users are kept out. However, the logs are a bit hard to read currently, I'd suggest:

- Drop the join/leave messages

- Don't log the "-= 19 unlogged messages =-", it makes stuff really hard to read, although I see what you're trying to indicate — do a less noisy thing, like […] instead, if you still want it?

It'll never be perfect of course, since sometimes you'll lose half the context since you don't get the person asking the question in the logs.

Anyway, I personally never found IRC logs very useful — but if it's going to be done, this is a nice approach. :)

An example to illustrate

Posted by Alexander Limi at Feb 18, 2009 05:22 AM
Before:

2009-02-18T01:21:40 <jonstahl> doublea: you can either create a custom content type or use "schemaextender" to add fields to existing content types.
2009-02-18T01:37:54 -= 7 unlogged messages =-
2009-02-18T01:37:54 <jonstahl> doublea: you can't add properties to existing types through the web.
2009-02-18T01:41:29 -= 7 unlogged messages =-
2009-02-18T01:41:29 *** jonstahl has quit IRC
2009-02-18T02:07:42 -= 21 unlogged messages =-
2009-02-18T02:07:42 *** jonstahl has joined #plone
2009-02-18T02:54:16 -= 56 unlogged messages =-
2009-02-18T02:54:16 *** jonstahl has quit IRC

After:

2009-02-18T01:21:40 <jonstahl> doublea: you can either create a custom content type or use "schemaextender" to add fields to existing content types.
[…]
2009-02-18T01:37:54 <jonstahl> doublea: you can't add properties to existing types through the web.
[…]

Good ideas

Posted by Erik Rose at Feb 18, 2009 11:11 AM
Much more scannable. I'll give ’em a shot!

Did it.

Posted by Erik Rose at Feb 18, 2009 12:44 PM
Okay, I did some tweaks, and now it looks like this:

2009-02-18T01:21:40 <jonstahl> doublea: you can either create a custom content type or use "schemaextender" to add fields to existing content types.
...
2009-02-18T01:37:54 <jonstahl> doublea: you can't add properties to existing types through the web.
...
2009-02-18T01:41:29 . . jonstahl has quit IRC
...
2009-02-18T02:07:42 . . jonstahl has joined #plone
...
2009-02-18T02:54:16 . . jonstahl has quit IRC

That " . . " is actually all spaces; see the bottom of http://weblion.psu.edu/chatlogs/%23plone/2009/02/18.txt. I just couldn't figure out how to get it to display here. Also, I tried "..." with the brackets and without, and, with my eyeballs, without drew even less attention to it.

For the moment, I kept the status messages, as I'm not yet convinced that they're not useful (anybody else have an opinion?), but I messed with the asterisks so the messages look indented, easy to scan past.

Thanks again for the ideas, and keep 'em coming. :-)

citing with a fine tooth-comb

Posted by mrenoch at Feb 19, 2009 01:56 AM
What if you wrapped every timestamp in an auto-generated anchor tag?

That way folks could link to a specific line in the log?

A grand idea.

Posted by Erik Rose at Feb 19, 2009 10:46 AM
I've considered this but haven't got around to it. Have any favorite post-processors?

How to keep it well-formed?

Posted by Erik Rose at Feb 19, 2009 12:09 PM
I wonder how to keep an HTML log well-formed when disk writes aren't transactional. I don't really care to do the temp-file-and-mv dance.

logging for the future

Posted by AsigotTech /Wyn Williams at Feb 19, 2009 02:35 PM
I think its a great idea and resource for the future, also for tracking the changes and abilities of an open source community to look back on.

I think it may be an idea add anonymous user names for real ones, changing the names every day joeblogss= fredflintstone one day and wilma the next as people do make personal comments in IRC and this would negate concerns about this.

Keep up the good work !

OTOH

Posted by Erik Rose at Feb 19, 2009 02:50 PM
OTOH, it might dilute some of the value of the logs. I know I pay a lot more attention to assertions by, say, SteveM than I do to Guest12345.

Though I wonder if optional anonymizing on a per-nick basis could attract some more people to opt in.

OPT ib nick

Posted by AsigotTech / Wyn Williams at Feb 20, 2009 04:26 PM
Good point, maybe a opt in to opting out of nick names ? easy enough to sort out, It may be going overboard since it already includes the [nolog] command.

That may be enough, as long as it doesn't record IP address of course then nobody can really prove I asked MacYET out for a drink....

Could a header be added?

Posted by Joel Davis at Feb 26, 2009 03:23 PM
Theoretically, people will be finding the chat logs through a web search. When they arrive, they'll find what is obviously a conversation log of some kind, but there's no context for anyone who isn't already pretty IRC savvy. Perhaps you could automatically write a header each time a new log is started. Something like...

This is a log of comments made on the #plone IRC channel. Only users who request to have their messages logged are included, so a message made by a non-logged user (or several) are represented by "...".
More information about Plone: http://plone.org/
About the #plone IRC channel: http://plone.org/support/chat
About this log: http://weblion.psu.edu/[…]/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Headers

Posted by danielig at May 10, 2009 03:06 AM
I am sure it is trivial to pull the textfiles inside a Plone site with proper search facility etc.
This would make it even more accessible by being able to just search the logs.
This would also make google more aware of the logfiles presence. Because they would show up in the sitemap etc.

Searching just the logs

Posted by Erik Rose at May 17, 2009 06:51 PM
Remember, you can always search just the logs by including "site:http://weblion.psu.edu/chatlogs/%23plone/" in your Google query.
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