2007-02-24T00:03:20  *** benbangert has quit IRC
2007-02-24T00:03:30  *** dijix has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T00:04:05  *** benbangert has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T00:04:34  *** tav has quit IRC
2007-02-24T00:08:36  *** coderanger_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T00:14:56  <dijix> Anyone awake in here?
2007-02-24T00:15:05  <creiht> partially
2007-02-24T00:15:28  <creiht> trying to get my photos processed and uploaded to flickr
2007-02-24T00:15:47  <dijix> got any contenders for the prize?
2007-02-24T00:15:54  <creiht> dunno
2007-02-24T00:16:00  <creiht> Nothing really exciting yet
2007-02-24T00:16:33  <dijix> true - our gathering's not exactly the oscars
2007-02-24T00:16:37  <creiht> uploading to flickr is pretty quick, but trying to manage the photos is painfully slow
2007-02-24T00:16:38  <creiht> haha
2007-02-24T00:18:11  <dijix> some nice shots of the olpc already up, I see
2007-02-24T00:18:18  <creiht> hehe
2007-02-24T00:18:23  <creiht> Those might be mine :)
2007-02-24T00:19:05  <dijix> ahhh... TheTheirs?
2007-02-24T00:19:07  <creiht> haha
2007-02-24T00:19:08  <creiht> yeah
2007-02-24T00:19:26  <dijix> creiht = thierc
2007-02-24T00:19:49  <creiht> Very observant you are
2007-02-24T00:19:58  <creiht> but now my identity has been revealed
2007-02-24T00:20:04  <dijix> hehe
2007-02-24T00:21:53  *** baijum has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T00:22:10  <dijix> hrmm flickr shows more information about the photos if you're viewing them from the owners page versus the tag..
2007-02-24T00:22:54  <creiht> Well if you are talking about description and notes, it may be because I am in the middle of making changes to those :)
2007-02-24T00:23:59  <dijix> could be, but the site still renders them differently.. ah well.. that could just be a feature :)
2007-02-24T00:24:07  <creiht> true
2007-02-24T00:27:45  *** wam_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T00:31:18  <creiht> alright
2007-02-24T00:31:25  <creiht> My photos from today can be found here
2007-02-24T00:31:27  <creiht> http://flickr.com/photos/thethiers/sets/72157594553086249/
2007-02-24T00:31:29  <benbangert> oh?
2007-02-24T00:32:33  <dijix> that mesh network flash demo on the olpc site is pretty cool.. once I figured out you could drag the nodes around instead of just clicking on them..
2007-02-24T00:36:02  *** coderanger_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T00:49:28  *** wam_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T00:53:30  *** tpollari has quit IRC
2007-02-24T00:54:21  *** Tv has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T00:55:18  *** tpollari has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T00:59:00  *** creiht has quit IRC
2007-02-24T01:15:36  *** gldnspud has quit IRC
2007-02-24T01:17:15  *** pobrien has quit IRC
2007-02-24T01:19:22  *** dijix has quit IRC
2007-02-24T01:26:05  *** drewp|tx has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T01:30:33  *** tav_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T01:44:39  *** coderanger__ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T01:59:34  *** pfein has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T02:03:12  *** coderanger_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T02:04:20  <gps> heh
2007-02-24T02:04:20  <pfein> so tired...
2007-02-24T02:04:27  <pfein> ZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzz
2007-02-24T02:04:34  <gps> thats where i'm headed now
2007-02-24T02:09:09  *** benbangert has quit IRC
2007-02-24T02:09:37  *** benbangert_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T02:35:14  *** bryan has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T02:35:16  *** drewp|tx has quit IRC
2007-02-24T02:43:08  *** coderanger__ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T02:53:53  *** ubernostrum has quit IRC
2007-02-24T04:12:03  *** benbangert_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T04:21:11  *** tav has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T04:34:14  *** shawn has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T04:37:36  *** bryan has quit IRC
2007-02-24T04:37:51  *** bryan_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T04:56:13  *** tav_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T05:00:49  *** tav has quit IRC
2007-02-24T05:31:02  *** tav_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T06:46:22  *** _moshez has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T07:26:21  *** baijum has quit IRC
2007-02-24T07:49:55  *** thatch has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T07:57:35  <_moshez> good morning thatch
2007-02-24T07:57:47  <_moshez> you should totally come down to the lobby and awesome with us
2007-02-24T07:57:54  <thatch> morning
2007-02-24T07:58:08  <thatch> It'll take me a bit to drive there.  What's going down in the lobby?
2007-02-24T07:58:16  *** pfein_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T07:58:25  <thatch> I was going to try to make it to the 8am "Where will Pycon be next year" session
2007-02-24T08:05:46  <_moshez> well
2007-02-24T08:05:55  <_moshez> just a bunch of people talking\
2007-02-24T08:13:12  <thatch> I'm headed out.  Be there in a bit.
2007-02-24T08:13:19  *** thatch has quit IRC
2007-02-24T08:18:15  <_moshez> wooooo
2007-02-24T08:22:09  *** tav has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T08:23:03  *** pfein has quit IRC
2007-02-24T08:39:26  *** thatch has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T08:42:21  *** creiht has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T08:43:38  <creiht> bah... It's way too early for me to be up
2007-02-24T08:50:48  *** ecn has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T08:51:17  <creiht> ecn: Howdy!
2007-02-24T08:51:27  <ecn> Hi!
2007-02-24T08:51:37  <creiht> Are you downstairs?
2007-02-24T08:51:42  <ecn> yep
2007-02-24T08:51:57  <ecn> in one of the rooms across from the ballroom
2007-02-24T08:52:01  <creiht> Where?
2007-02-24T08:52:14  <ecn> lemme check
2007-02-24T08:52:18  <creiht> Cool I'm out in the hallway
2007-02-24T08:52:26  <creiht> On the table and chairs
2007-02-24T08:52:38  <ecn> preston trail 1
2007-02-24T08:52:43  *** _moshez has quit IRC
2007-02-24T08:52:57  <ecn> I have black shirt on
2007-02-24T08:53:16  <creiht> cool... lemme finish some things, and I'll come by to say hi :)
2007-02-24T08:56:06  *** creiht has quit IRC
2007-02-24T09:05:11  *** tav_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T09:11:30  *** tav has quit IRC
2007-02-24T09:19:25  *** thatch_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T09:26:18  *** PluckyBlade has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T09:26:36  *** PluckyBlade is now known as jng
2007-02-24T09:27:05  *** dcf has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T09:27:21  *** dcf is now known as DuncF
2007-02-24T09:28:11  *** ecn has quit IRC
2007-02-24T09:30:36  *** _moshez has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T09:31:04  <_moshez> I'm in the talk hall, second column from the right, first actual table from the front
2007-02-24T09:31:11  <_moshez> anyone else in here!
2007-02-24T09:31:18  <DuncF> yep
2007-02-24T09:31:43  <DuncF> table to your right and back one
2007-02-24T09:32:31  <_moshez> woooooo
2007-02-24T09:32:41  <_moshez> teeehee
2007-02-24T09:32:45  * _moshez goes "yaay"
2007-02-24T09:33:20  *** gldnspud has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T09:33:31  <_moshez> hello person with unpronouncable nick
2007-02-24T09:33:35  <_moshez> please indicate position
2007-02-24T09:34:21  <gldnspud> lol...
2007-02-24T09:34:27  <gldnspud> by ballroom entrance h
2007-02-24T09:34:32  <_moshez> oh
2007-02-24T09:34:35  <_moshez> you should come in
2007-02-24T09:34:45  <_moshez> and indicate position on a the table/column matrix
2007-02-24T09:35:25  *** thatch has quit IRC
2007-02-24T09:36:09  *** gldnspud has quit IRC
2007-02-24T09:39:13  *** gldnspud has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T09:39:55  *** tsuno has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T09:40:14  <gldnspud> _moshez: where in the room is (0,0)?
2007-02-24T09:42:27  <grover2> upper left?
2007-02-24T09:42:30  <maelztrom> (0,0) ==> where guido sits
2007-02-24T09:42:36  <grover2> hehe
2007-02-24T09:43:04  <maelztrom> 'course, then we don't know where he is and have to constantly re-evaluate
2007-02-24T09:43:27  *** thatch_ is now known as thatch
2007-02-24T09:44:51  *** rmunn has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T09:47:20  *** _moshez has quit IRC
2007-02-24T09:47:27  *** _moshez has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T09:47:42  <_moshez> guess whaaaaaat everyone
2007-02-24T09:47:51  *** pobrien has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T09:47:57  <_moshez> I finished the song about "The ESS mesh is for porn"
2007-02-24T09:48:00  * _moshez happies
2007-02-24T09:48:23  <gldnspud> pobrien: welcome
2007-02-24T09:48:31  <pobrien> gldnspud: heya
2007-02-24T09:48:44  <pobrien> one row in front of you to the left
2007-02-24T09:48:47  <DuncF> _moshez: lightning talk^H^H^H^Hsong?
2007-02-24T09:48:55  <_moshez> DuncF: oh man
2007-02-24T09:49:04  <_moshez> I should so lead the crowd in singing that
2007-02-24T09:49:17  <_moshez> let me give a short teaser
2007-02-24T09:49:19  <_moshez> The ESS mesh is really really great
2007-02-24T09:49:19  <_moshez> For porn
2007-02-24T09:49:19  <_moshez> A spontaneous connection, so I can just connect
2007-02-24T09:49:19  <_moshez> To porn
2007-02-24T09:49:19  <_moshez> There's always some new node
2007-02-24T09:49:19  <_moshez> With porn
2007-02-24T09:49:22  <_moshez> To collaborate and code
2007-02-24T09:49:23  <pobrien> _moshez: what, your Avenue Q song?
2007-02-24T09:49:23  <_moshez> And porn
2007-02-24T09:49:25  <_moshez> It even works when I amm on the road
2007-02-24T09:49:27  <_moshez> To porn
2007-02-24T09:49:37  <_moshez> pobrien: it's more like Avenue Geek, but yeah
2007-02-24T09:49:55  * _moshez mutilates Avenue Q songs for fun
2007-02-24T09:50:02  <_moshez> I wish I could do it for profit though
2007-02-24T09:50:23  *** wam_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T09:50:29  <wam_> Morning all
2007-02-24T09:50:35  <_moshez> wam: you missed my song :(
2007-02-24T09:50:43  <_moshez> wam: why do you hate everyone
2007-02-24T09:51:15  <wam_> I'm not a hater...
2007-02-24T09:51:35  <_moshez> I beg to differ
2007-02-24T09:51:40  <_moshez> also do you know what is awesome?
2007-02-24T09:51:45  <_moshez> electricityt
2007-02-24T09:51:51  * _moshez does the evil dance of electricity
2007-02-24T09:51:54  <wam_> power is a good thing...
2007-02-24T09:52:06  <gldnspud> that sounds like a good band name
2007-02-24T09:52:09  <gldnspud> ElectriciTyt
2007-02-24T09:52:10  * wam_ looks around for an electricity dancing fool....
2007-02-24T09:52:12  *** therve has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T09:52:14  <wam_> :-)
2007-02-24T09:52:32  <_moshez> wam: hrm, like the abba song? "The Dancing Geek"?
2007-02-24T09:53:09  <_moshez> You are my dancing geek/young and sweet/dancing like a freak
2007-02-24T09:53:17  <wam_> loll
2007-02-24T09:54:00  * _moshez evils to songs
2007-02-24T09:54:02  <wam_> So mosh, where you be?
2007-02-24T09:54:26  <_moshez> first table from the front, second column from the left
2007-02-24T09:54:42  <_moshez> you
2007-02-24T09:54:54  *** pfein_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T09:55:05  <gldnspud> someone's cell phone got too close the PA system evidently
2007-02-24T09:55:08  <wam_> second table back... second column from the left
2007-02-24T09:55:26  *** creiht has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T09:55:38  *** ecn has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T09:55:41  *** __jt__ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T09:55:58  <wam_> I really would like to get a recording of the pa system freaking to the ring tone and use it as a ring tone... it was a great idea discussed yesterday
2007-02-24T09:56:13  <creiht> haha
2007-02-24T09:56:17  <_moshez> wam: you are insane
2007-02-24T09:56:23  <wam_> thank you
2007-02-24T10:03:18  <wam_> man, net connection is much more laggy than yesterday
2007-02-24T10:03:42  <creiht> I demand a re-roll
2007-02-24T10:03:43  <_moshez> for serious?
2007-02-24T10:03:48  <_moshez> it feels better for me
2007-02-24T10:03:52  <_moshez> but dunno
2007-02-24T10:04:01  <gps> morning
2007-02-24T10:04:08  <_moshez> indeed! early and stuff
2007-02-24T10:04:18  * _moshez is always sad that he forgets to bring his jacket
2007-02-24T10:04:28  <_moshez> wtf why do they cool so much here :(
2007-02-24T10:04:51  <tsuno> def getRandomNumber(): return 4 # chosen by fair dice roll </xkcd>
2007-02-24T10:04:58  <_moshez> yaay xkcd
2007-02-24T10:05:04  <_moshez> also xkcd's was in C
2007-02-24T10:05:09  <tsuno> trudat
2007-02-24T10:05:12  <tsuno> I took poetic license
2007-02-24T10:05:20  <_moshez> getRandomNumber = lambda :4
2007-02-24T10:05:26  <gps> hehe
2007-02-24T10:05:29  <tsuno> ha
2007-02-24T10:05:42  <_moshez> wooo lambdas
2007-02-24T10:06:15  <maelztrom> real question is--was it really a RNG, or a PRNG?
2007-02-24T10:06:25  <maelztrom> maybe you should just demand a reseed?
2007-02-24T10:06:27  <_moshez> what does "fully OO" mean??
2007-02-24T10:06:38  <_moshez> even in Scheme, everything is an object
2007-02-24T10:06:40  <grover2> supports all 3 parts of oo?
2007-02-24T10:06:46  <jng> fully OO == not C++/java ;)
2007-02-24T10:06:49  *** ErikRose has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T10:06:56  <_moshez> jng: what about CL?
2007-02-24T10:07:10  <jng> good point..
2007-02-24T10:07:19  *** tpollari has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T10:07:23  *** jerry_s has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T10:07:30  <jerry_s> *yawn*
2007-02-24T10:07:49  <jerry_s> morning all.
2007-02-24T10:07:57  *** _chris_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T10:08:31  <maelztrom> hrm..while I'm at  aplace full of people, anyone know any good packages for network simulation in python?
2007-02-24T10:08:38  <_moshez> wait wtf
2007-02-24T10:08:44  <_moshez> simula is older than smalltalk
2007-02-24T10:08:56  <_moshez> maelztrom: please be more accurate
2007-02-24T10:09:02  *** ianbicking has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T10:09:14  <wam_> maelztrom: what are you looking to simulate?
2007-02-24T10:09:41  *** dijix has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T10:09:50  * _moshez froops at people
2007-02-24T10:09:52  *** gldnspud has quit IRC
2007-02-24T10:09:54  <creiht> whoa
2007-02-24T10:09:55  <_moshez> hello ian, dijix
2007-02-24T10:10:16  *** adrian_h has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T10:10:28  <maelztrom> _moshez/wam_ looking to model a p2p network over the standard interweb with a specific peer topography.  Desiring to track total number of connections, traffic sent, and approximate computational overheard per node
2007-02-24T10:10:41  <dijix> morning, moshez!
2007-02-24T10:10:52  <ecn> the mic really sucks today
2007-02-24T10:10:54  <_moshez> maezlstrom: sounds like what you really want is a bunch of tap devices, and a raw socket?
2007-02-24T10:11:03  <gps> the p2p-hackers list is a good place to ask that.  dunno if anything of that sort is in python
2007-02-24T10:11:11  <_moshez> 40 is not that small
2007-02-24T10:11:23  * grover2 looks for someone with a car who might want to drop by ConDFW tomorrow
2007-02-24T10:11:32  <_moshez> ConDFW?
2007-02-24T10:11:46  <grover2> sf con
2007-02-24T10:11:55  <_moshez> SF?
2007-02-24T10:12:01  <_moshez> oh, science fiction
2007-02-24T10:12:03  <maelztrom> Well..not really moshez--I don't want to actually implement it yet, just start off with a few simulations to see if the idea has any hope of scaling
2007-02-24T10:12:04  <_moshez> not san francisco
2007-02-24T10:12:16  <grover2> heh
2007-02-24T10:12:34  <jerry_s> "The biggest challenge facing this nation."  Which nation is she talking about?
2007-02-24T10:12:46  <_moshez> maelztrom: ...just put a couple of tap devices, and influence just enough of the low-level networking so they would use the right device
2007-02-24T10:12:46  <grover2> pythonation
2007-02-24T10:12:57  <gps> and here i thought it applied to the world
2007-02-24T10:12:57  <_moshez> maelztrom: put a bridge between all tap devices
2007-02-24T10:12:58  <creiht> I wonder if she realizes that the OLPC is not for american public schools?
2007-02-24T10:12:59  <wam_> 40 is pretty  big number when compared to avg age of her audience.
2007-02-24T10:13:09  <_moshez> and you can at least simulate a LAN
2007-02-24T10:13:29  <creiht> She got something right :)
2007-02-24T10:13:31  <tpollari> Why couldn't OLPC be for american schools?
2007-02-24T10:13:32  <_moshez> creiht: are there peopel outside america?
2007-02-24T10:13:43  *** gldnspud has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T10:13:45  <maelztrom> moshez--would that really be practical for...simulating a 10,000 node system?
2007-02-24T10:13:49  <ecn> could that be a result of other nations getting smarter?
2007-02-24T10:13:57  <tpollari> I mean, it's not targeted at them, but could it be useful?
2007-02-24T10:14:08  <ianbicking> well, some of the hardware compromises they made don't really matter in the US
2007-02-24T10:14:10  <ErikRose> Every 6 seconds, somebody spreads randomly occuring events evenly across time? :-)
2007-02-24T10:14:24  <_moshez> maezltrom: I doubt you would get a decent 10K node simulation on one machine
2007-02-24T10:14:35  <_moshez> I bet you could get to 100 with a really decent machine
2007-02-24T10:14:39  <_moshez> say, 4GB of ram
2007-02-24T10:14:45  <_moshez> do you know it scales to 100?
2007-02-24T10:15:00  <wam_> anyone else having problem getting to www.schoolmatters.org?
2007-02-24T10:15:02  <creiht> Mine goes to 11 :)
2007-02-24T10:15:07  <dijix> stackless would probably help that
2007-02-24T10:15:20  <_moshez> I wonder if she realizes how many of the audience is not american
2007-02-24T10:15:23  <dijix> nice, creiht
2007-02-24T10:15:35  <_moshez> and doesn't really care about detailed statistics re: american schools
2007-02-24T10:15:41  <maelztrom> Well, I have cluster access...but that'd be overkill for now.  I haven't tested 100 yet...haven't written a 'node' yet--wanted to find a good application to simulate in first
2007-02-24T10:16:26  *** pfein_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T10:16:34  <_moshez> maelztrom: well, if you have a cluster, I bet you could use 100 machines each with 100 nodes so that you'll simulate a semi-WAN
2007-02-24T10:16:43  <_chris_> i'm thinking twice about having kids....
2007-02-24T10:16:49  <jerry_s> heh
2007-02-24T10:16:56  <_moshez> chris: I'm rethinking the decision to come to the talk :(
2007-02-24T10:17:16  <tpollari> I'm thinking twice about sending my (hypothetical) kids to public schools
2007-02-24T10:17:27  <dijix> yay America...
2007-02-24T10:17:33  <_chris_> stop scaring me!  i want to be in my happy place.
2007-02-24T10:17:35  <_moshez> or, perhaps, maybe, we don't care
2007-02-24T10:17:40  <_chris_> *happy place*   *happy place*
2007-02-24T10:17:44  <_moshez> aaaaargh
2007-02-24T10:17:45  <DuncF> land of the "free" and home of the "brave"?
2007-02-24T10:17:47  <_moshez> come fucking on
2007-02-24T10:17:53  <_moshez> talk about interesting things
2007-02-24T10:17:55  <_moshez> pleaaaaaaase
2007-02-24T10:18:14  *** nerd_alert has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T10:18:24  <tpollari> This is interesting to a certain number of us -- and dovetails nicely with the OLPC
2007-02-24T10:18:28  <_moshez> also please do not say the word "elearning" again it hurts my brain
2007-02-24T10:18:29  <maelztrom> _moshez:  yeah, but I don't think I'm gonna get root access to that cluster to start adding devices.  There isn't some sort of python centric simulation package?  The best thing I've found so far is omnet++ --and you can pprobably guess what language that works in from the name
2007-02-24T10:18:47  <dijix> maelztrom: have you looked at simpy?
2007-02-24T10:18:58  <_moshez> maelztrom: I wouldn't trust any other testing methodology
2007-02-24T10:19:00  <tpollari> did she ever explicitly define 'elearning' ?
2007-02-24T10:19:06  <gps> tpollari: govt sponsored survey following kids in i believe 3rd(?) and 8th(?) grade over years found the diff between public and private education was not much.  most difference was simply how home life was.  i can url if you want.
2007-02-24T10:19:08  <wam_> I do wonder what this has to do with python... other than that her position seems to refute a great keynote that was related to python
2007-02-24T10:19:20  <maelztrom> No--but I'm at google now :)
2007-02-24T10:19:21  <tpollari> gps: that'd be cool
2007-02-24T10:19:25  <_moshez> if that's elearning, is what we're doing "etalking"?
2007-02-24T10:19:37  <ecn> wam_: I think that's the point
2007-02-24T10:19:39  <_moshez> WOW "programs are data"
2007-02-24T10:19:41  <maelztrom> You're right in that any other 'simulation' is kind of inaccurate by definition moshez
2007-02-24T10:19:44  <DuncF> gps: sounds very plausible
2007-02-24T10:19:51  <_moshez> has she rediscovered lisp?
2007-02-24T10:19:53  <thatch> _moshez: yes, we're eTalking on the 'cyberweb'
2007-02-24T10:19:58  <gps> http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/pubs/studies/2006461.asp
2007-02-24T10:20:03  <_moshez> yaaaaay cyberweb!!
2007-02-24T10:20:08  <_chris_> thatch: it's called cyberwebS :)
2007-02-24T10:20:16  <_moshez> but don't you mean the cyberintarweb?
2007-02-24T10:20:29  <_moshez> perhaps the cyberintarwebsphere
2007-02-24T10:20:31  <tpollari> gps: thanks -- I'm not overly surprised, being the product of both public and private education myself...
2007-02-24T10:20:33  <dijix> it's the tubes, y'all....
2007-02-24T10:20:56  <_moshez> yes, we're pushing out etalking through the tubes of the cyberintarwebsphere
2007-02-24T10:20:58  <maelztrom> I don't know why she's going on with this--it's well known that the american education system is based off of henry ford's fucking factory model
2007-02-24T10:21:07  <thatch> _moshez: I'm trying to locate the xkcd comic on what to call the (inter|cyber|...)(net|netz|blah|blorp)
2007-02-24T10:21:25  <_moshez> thatch: "words I used to make fun of the internet"
2007-02-24T10:21:26  <_moshez> ?
2007-02-24T10:21:32  <_chris_> someones blockin our tubes:   http://www.flickr.com/photos/buro9/298994824/
2007-02-24T10:21:32  <thatch> _moshez: http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/interblag.png
2007-02-24T10:21:45  <maelztrom> I used to have teachers in highschool tell me to my face they'd rather have robots than bright students--it makes their jobs easier
2007-02-24T10:21:56  <wam_> working collaborativly without use of eTechnology... like, with, roberts rules of order
2007-02-24T10:22:02  *** adrian_h has quit IRC
2007-02-24T10:22:15  <gldnspud> does moshez not have the patience that she refers to?  :)
2007-02-24T10:22:17  <dijix> in our tubes, stealing our bits
2007-02-24T10:22:24  <tpollari> maelztrom:  so, just because it happens we should accept it as OK?
2007-02-24T10:22:36  <maelztrom> I don't accept things that happen as okay
2007-02-24T10:22:39  <_moshez> did she refer to patience?
2007-02-24T10:22:57  <creiht> Go Steve Jobs!
2007-02-24T10:23:01  <tpollari> and Steve Jobs is right.
2007-02-24T10:23:01  <_moshez> so the worldwidecyberintarwebsphere
2007-02-24T10:23:04  <thatch> I read more about how he talked about DRM than that... and I do read the paper.
2007-02-24T10:23:08  <maelztrom> But it's a pretty well established fact that requires much deeper reform than will be accomplished by our group
2007-02-24T10:23:27  <wam_> wah... our jobs our hard and we can't get fired....
2007-02-24T10:23:33  <_moshez> but we have the power of the tubes of the worldwidecyberintarwebsphere
2007-02-24T10:23:34  <maelztrom> I think the talk is about as out of place as something by PETA on animal rights *shrug*
2007-02-24T10:23:38  <_moshez> what can resist us
2007-02-24T10:23:51  <_moshez> other than our horrendous apathy in the face of non-interesting crap
2007-02-24T10:24:09  <_chris_> when are we going to have python?  i came for the python....
2007-02-24T10:24:19  <_moshez> you stayed for the service?
2007-02-24T10:24:26  <dijix> snakes!! on da planes!
2007-02-24T10:24:49  <tpollari> _moshez: LOL
2007-02-24T10:24:52  <dijix> we came on da planes for da snakes!
2007-02-24T10:25:07  <_moshez> on da fucking planes with the mutherfucking snakes?
2007-02-24T10:25:09  <creiht> So what would happen if everyone walked out? :)
2007-02-24T10:25:20  <_moshez> she might be insulted
2007-02-24T10:25:34  <_moshez> though not as much as my intelligence is insulted
2007-02-24T10:25:43  <_moshez> when I'm given valueless statistics
2007-02-24T10:25:45  <_chris_> does anyone have one of those giant hooks like from the gong show?
2007-02-24T10:25:47  <_moshez> especially with polls
2007-02-24T10:25:52  <ErikRose> She helped write Smalltalk. I'll listen.
2007-02-24T10:26:01  <tpollari> exactly
2007-02-24T10:26:09  <_moshez> she helped write smalltalk and did nothing since but whine?
2007-02-24T10:26:09  <wam_> I should have raised my hand...
2007-02-24T10:26:21  <creiht> Doh... I wasn't paying attention... what did she ask?
2007-02-24T10:26:25  <wam_> my hs got me to college, which introduced me to unix which has led directly to my life as it is now
2007-02-24T10:26:31  <_moshez> wam: I think she forgot to compensate for "people who don't care enough to raise their hand"
2007-02-24T10:26:32  <_chris_> there's a guy sitting in front of me with the phrase "kill bed bugs" in his browser's search history.  should i be concerned?
2007-02-24T10:26:33  <ecn> ya... guidance counselor @ public school talked me into college
2007-02-24T10:26:43  <creiht> wonders where I would be if I didn't have computer access in school
2007-02-24T10:26:45  <wam_> loll
2007-02-24T10:26:46  <_moshez> chris: where are you
2007-02-24T10:26:59  <_chris_> 2nd set of tables in from the right
2007-02-24T10:27:05  <_chris_> 2nd row from the back.
2007-02-24T10:27:07  <_chris_> middle of the table
2007-02-24T10:27:14  <_chris_> i have the red mane
2007-02-24T10:27:28  <ecn> I've sent kids to public & private school... public school has been better and more responsive
2007-02-24T10:27:29  <_chris_> _moshez: where are you?
2007-02-24T10:27:36  <_moshez> I'm in the same column
2007-02-24T10:27:40  <_moshez> first table from the front
2007-02-24T10:27:54  <_moshez> wam: can you see chris?
2007-02-24T10:28:13  <maelztrom> sigh.  I used to know I understood mathematics when I could program it
2007-02-24T10:28:24  <_moshez> and specifically, the guy next to him with the "kill bed bugs"
2007-02-24T10:28:32  <_chris_> he's in front of me.  :)
2007-02-24T10:28:38  <_moshez> oh
2007-02-24T10:29:01  <_moshez> I am happy that we have technology
2007-02-24T10:29:05  <_moshez> so we can do something
2007-02-24T10:29:08  <wam_> I hate rhetorical questions that are asked from a population that is prohibited from answering due to social conventions....
2007-02-24T10:29:11  <_moshez> while she drones on and fucking on
2007-02-24T10:29:19  <wam_> e.g. don't interupt the keynote speaker
2007-02-24T10:29:20  <_moshez> wam: we should totally answer
2007-02-24T10:29:56  <tpollari> _moshez, look at yourself, man.  it's been non-stop bitching from you.
2007-02-24T10:30:04  <_moshez> wam: the opposite question
2007-02-24T10:30:04  <_moshez> yes! this is what I'm saying to myself
2007-02-24T10:30:05  <maelztrom> That's what they should do next year
2007-02-24T10:30:07  <_moshez> "why should I care"
2007-02-24T10:30:13  <creiht> I guess we should go back to writing on cave walls with chalk
2007-02-24T10:30:17  <maelztrom> dedicate a computer/projector to anonymous question/answer submission
2007-02-24T10:30:18  <tpollari> why should I care if you care?
2007-02-24T10:30:24  <_moshez> tpollari: well, it's more polite to vent on irc
2007-02-24T10:30:30  <_chris_> did she say she DID or DIDN'T think the OLPC make a difference?
2007-02-24T10:30:37  <_moshez> we should totally make a channel
2007-02-24T10:30:38  <dijix> mmm.. chalk GOOD.. fire BAD!
2007-02-24T10:30:40  <_moshez> #pycon-sarcasm
2007-02-24T10:30:43  <tsuno> Her hostility and vehemence are interesting; I'm waiting for teh twist at the end.
2007-02-24T10:30:50  <tpollari> lol
2007-02-24T10:30:54  <wam_> do we have any hard data that shows learning physics in public school systems helps students?
2007-02-24T10:30:57  <_moshez> tsuno: "and then we all woke up"
2007-02-24T10:31:02  <_chris_> i didn't parse what she said....
2007-02-24T10:31:04  <tsuno> haha
2007-02-24T10:31:08  *** coderanger__ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T10:31:10  *** coderanger__ is now known as coderanger_
2007-02-24T10:31:17  * _moshez waves to the coderanger
2007-02-24T10:31:35  <creiht> I think she is saying that there is no data that shows that using technology in schools doesn't work
2007-02-24T10:31:41  <creiht> err does work
2007-02-24T10:31:52  <wam_> she wants universal impact, right after blasting the OLPC...
2007-02-24T10:31:53  <_moshez> creiht: ah, the scientific method at work
2007-02-24T10:31:57  <wam_> wtf?
2007-02-24T10:32:09  <_moshez> "we have no evidence, therefore it doesn't exist"
2007-02-24T10:32:14  *** sjzabel has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T10:32:23  <jerry_s> I think that was the introduction.  Now is the talk.
2007-02-24T10:32:48  <_moshez> jerry_s: noooooo I think it's still the intro
2007-02-24T10:32:53  <jerry_s> (slashdot, digg, and boingboing).
2007-02-24T10:33:00  <_moshez> jerry_s: ?
2007-02-24T10:33:03  <maelztrom> Aah, wired computers in highschool
2007-02-24T10:33:08  <jerry_s> that's what I read.
2007-02-24T10:33:13  <_moshez> recommendatiosn for what to do during talks?
2007-02-24T10:33:14  <_moshez> :)
2007-02-24T10:33:15  *** _chris_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T10:33:21  <_moshez> oh man
2007-02-24T10:33:27  *** _chris_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T10:33:32  <_moshez> I should totally catch up on python-dev mail archive
2007-02-24T10:33:33  <_moshez> s
2007-02-24T10:33:36  <dijix> wam_: I didn't really see it as blasting olpc
2007-02-24T10:33:59  <maelztrom> "the goal is about four computers per student' ?
2007-02-24T10:33:59  <ianbicking> yeah, I don't remember her saying that
2007-02-24T10:34:03  <maelztrom> did I hear that right?
2007-02-24T10:34:06  <grover2> 4 students per computer, I think
2007-02-24T10:34:07  <gldnspud> burn them hydrocarbons!
2007-02-24T10:34:08  <wam_> you did...
2007-02-24T10:34:09  <_chris_> that seemed wrong
2007-02-24T10:34:16  <creiht> She doesn't know what she is talking about
2007-02-24T10:34:22  <jerry_s> New math.  maybe she went to a crappy public school.
2007-02-24T10:34:31  <wam_> it's the One Rack Per Child initiative
2007-02-24T10:34:36  <jerry_s> heh
2007-02-24T10:35:55  *** _chris_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T10:35:59  *** _chris_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T10:36:11  <tpollari> if they're running windows, her timelines are right
2007-02-24T10:36:13  <maelztrom> so this system failed because computer's were too valuable?
2007-02-24T10:36:20  <wam_> not wrong if OLPC establishes a baseline...
2007-02-24T10:36:31  <maelztrom> ack apostrophe splice
2007-02-24T10:36:56  <dijix> when I was in school, the computers were used for education in much the same way that some parents use Barney videos as babysitters.. didn't really learn anything that we weren't learning from the teachers, except the teachers could go hang out in the teacher's lounge for an hour.
2007-02-24T10:36:56  <ErikRose> It's interesting how different the situation is in higher ed, where every student brings his own lappie.
2007-02-24T10:37:12  <maelztrom> higher ed has a nice tradition of privilege
2007-02-24T10:37:15  <ErikRose> Good ol' capitalism and individual interest solves a lot.
2007-02-24T10:37:24  *** Veloso has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T10:37:26  <_chris_> in my middle school everyone would swipe the metal rolly ball from the mouse
2007-02-24T10:37:28  <ErikRose> Right, publicness is a hard problem to solve.
2007-02-24T10:37:31  <creiht> dijix: While that may be true, is that the computers fault or the teacher's/administrations fault?
2007-02-24T10:37:32  <_chris_> then they'd wing 'em down the long corridors...
2007-02-24T10:37:43  <_chris_> since everything was windows based it ruined the computers for everyone.
2007-02-24T10:37:50  <jerry_s> baby got back.
2007-02-24T10:38:00  <tpollari> so, wait, if you can take the incentive away from stealing the computers... like by making them cheap, low power units...
2007-02-24T10:38:03  <wam_> I learned basic in HS... Logo in elementary.... word processors and spreadsheets in middle school....
2007-02-24T10:38:04  <dijix> creiht: it's absolutely not the fault of the technology
2007-02-24T10:38:11  <maelztrom> Back in my highschool we used to bind batfiles with a net send in a while true loop to the system startup on random machines
2007-02-24T10:38:14  <creiht> I agree
2007-02-24T10:38:30  <ErikRose> He looks friendly.
2007-02-24T10:38:32  <_chris_> why's it flipping it's tophat at me?
2007-02-24T10:38:47  <wam_> apparently he enjoys riding his stick
2007-02-24T10:38:53  <gps> satan is uglier thatn i thought
2007-02-24T10:38:54  <_moshez> wtf yes it is funny
2007-02-24T10:38:56  <ErikRose> I don't know whether to laugh or cry;
2007-02-24T10:38:57  <_chris_> lol
2007-02-24T10:39:06  <ErikRose> gps: He's old.
2007-02-24T10:39:07  <grover2> everyone knows texas is crazy
2007-02-24T10:39:12  <maelztrom> it's fucking hilarious
2007-02-24T10:39:17  <tsuno> It's like a whole 'nother country.
2007-02-24T10:39:20  <maelztrom> You know what that says to me?  screw texas
2007-02-24T10:39:25  <grover2> lol
2007-02-24T10:39:27  <sjzabel> Austin != Texas
2007-02-24T10:39:47  <grover2> I know these!
2007-02-24T10:39:49  <gps> those loonies exist in all states
2007-02-24T10:40:10  <_moshez> OMG! a bunch of geeks know what ttys
2007-02-24T10:40:11  <gps> foreigners: yes this is what america is all about.  freedom to be stupid
2007-02-24T10:40:12  <_moshez> are
2007-02-24T10:40:13  <wam_> sjzabel, are you an austinite? (I am)
2007-02-24T10:40:14  <maelztrom> yeah, but I think texas has a uniquely dense distribution of them
2007-02-24T10:40:29  <sjzabel> : )
2007-02-24T10:40:32  <wam_> just more of them cause Texas has more of everything
2007-02-24T10:40:57  <maelztrom> more brainpower?
2007-02-24T10:41:02  <sjzabel> So far Austin is more liberal than the Chicago Suburbs
2007-02-24T10:41:35  <tpollari> umm... yeah, the chicago suburbs are not representative of the whole city of chicago, however,
2007-02-24T10:41:47  <tpollari> so compare chicago to austin and then reframe your statement
2007-02-24T10:41:50  <tsuno> I went to hs is Texas. The First Baptist Church of *mumble* shut down the hs scifi club, because we might have been playing D&D on school grounds. (1983)
2007-02-24T10:41:59  <wam_> what are elementary schools doing on Riker's Island?
2007-02-24T10:42:23  <wam_> oh, nevermind, I understand the bullet now
2007-02-24T10:42:31  <wam_> wah
2007-02-24T10:42:33  <Veloso> Not nearly as funny as the satan thing
2007-02-24T10:42:44  <maelztrom> dear god tsuno--you'll be corrupted by the power of satan!  http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp
2007-02-24T10:42:46  <_moshez> yaaaay d&d
2007-02-24T10:42:51  <ErikRose> I hope some day we can put our fears and prejudices aside and just laugh at people. (Thanks, Jack Handy.)
2007-02-24T10:43:05  <jerry_s> wow.  She would get roasted in Canada for using the word "Indians".
2007-02-24T10:43:10  <wam_> WHAT is her point?
2007-02-24T10:43:23  <_moshez> http://www.unhelpful.org/chyx/
2007-02-24T10:43:32  <ErikRose> jerry_s: It varies by region and tribe. The Seneca back where I'm from call themselves Indians.
2007-02-24T10:43:38  <wam_> Hey there mac guy with cheetah background... I'm right next to you
2007-02-24T10:43:47  <creiht> haha
2007-02-24T10:43:57  <jerry_s> Interesting.  In Canada, that's a derogatory term.
2007-02-24T10:44:01  <creiht> Well it is a Jaguar :)
2007-02-24T10:44:07  <wam_> ahh sorry.
2007-02-24T10:44:09  <maelztrom> awe, moshez found a better link :(
2007-02-24T10:44:55  <creiht> Everyone can see it here: http://flickr.com/photos/thethiers/331437307/in/set-72157594435467914/ :)
2007-02-24T10:45:13  <creiht> ha
2007-02-24T10:45:18  <creiht> Plato is horrible
2007-02-24T10:45:28  <dijix> I had a PlayDo System
2007-02-24T10:45:30  <_chris_> i hate the talks that pop things from 10 - 15 years ago.
2007-02-24T10:45:41  <_chris_> i wish this talk was about something new that's going on
2007-02-24T10:46:17  <gps> <_chris_> i hate learning from history
2007-02-24T10:46:42  <_chris_> no - i hate being told "computers were big and bulky and slow 10 years ago"
2007-02-24T10:46:51  <_chris_> "i breathe air!"
2007-02-24T10:47:10  <grover2> team programming
2007-02-24T10:47:23  <gps> hehe
2007-02-24T10:47:48  <dijix> ancient?  I thought 40 wasn't a big number
2007-02-24T10:48:23  <gldnspud> >>> import turtle
2007-02-24T10:48:29  <gps> depends on if you have a large or small value of 40
2007-02-24T10:48:32  *** brett_h has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T10:48:34  <gps> yay the turtle module
2007-02-24T10:48:42  *** gtalvola has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T10:48:51  <_moshez> is she still going on
2007-02-24T10:48:54  <_moshez> maaan
2007-02-24T10:49:03  <_moshez> thank god for the internets
2007-02-24T10:49:27  <brett_h> whats going on in there, anyway?
2007-02-24T10:49:31  *** retracile has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T10:50:20  <_chris_> seems like this would be a better keynote for a teachers conference rather than a programming conference.
2007-02-24T10:50:22  <tpollari> a heavily education focused talk with less technical of a focus than some would like
2007-02-24T10:50:40  <gldnspud> glad i went to a school that -did- teach logo when i was in 3rd grade
2007-02-24T10:50:47  <creiht> I quit working in the education sector so that I didn't have to listen to these types of talks anymore :(
2007-02-24T10:50:54  <_chris_> lol
2007-02-24T10:51:08  <wam_> her talk is so internally inconsistent though... I'm still struggling to figure out what her point is...
2007-02-24T10:51:10  <ErikRose> _chris_: Yeah, we're thinking of starting up a Plone in Education conf. I'll keep Goldberg in mind.
2007-02-24T10:51:16  *** __jt__ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T10:51:25  <tpollari> wam_: very true
2007-02-24T10:51:29  <tpollari> (IMHO)
2007-02-24T10:51:41  <grover2> damn its cold in here
2007-02-24T10:51:49  <_chris_> friend of mine was telling me about how his kids go to a school where the teachers send out assignments in PDF format
2007-02-24T10:51:49  <ErikRose> grover2: aye
2007-02-24T10:52:01  <tpollari> _chris_: where?
2007-02-24T10:52:05  <_chris_> you can submit your papers and homework on thumbdrives...  that seems like a pretty good idea.
2007-02-24T10:52:05  <dijix> I think it's just basically that the dysfunction of the public school system typically overrides any real benefit gained from using technology in schools..
2007-02-24T10:52:12  <_chris_> tpollari: over in maryland.
2007-02-24T10:52:20  <_chris_> tpollari: columbia area.
2007-02-24T10:52:24  <maelztrom> Why would I want to turn in a thumbdrive instead of emailing it?
2007-02-24T10:52:31  <maelztrom> Then I'd be out of a thumbdrive...
2007-02-24T10:52:39  <dijix> bluetooth..
2007-02-24T10:52:42  <_chris_> maelztrom: they support email as well.
2007-02-24T10:52:46  <tpollari> _chris_: cool.  it's nice to hear about positive cases as well
2007-02-24T10:52:47  <wam_> listen to what she just said... it refutes her keynote title....
2007-02-24T10:52:53  <tsuno> critical thinking skills
2007-02-24T10:53:13  <_chris_> tpollari: ya - it's using the compy as a tool, rather than the teaching channel.
2007-02-24T10:53:17  <wam_> kids taught to program become better problem solvers... yet eLearning should be kept out of schools....
2007-02-24T10:53:49  <gps> yeah kinda wondering how she intends to wrap this up and support her title
2007-02-24T10:53:57  <creiht> To think that before I before I was exposed to computers, I thought I would be an artist.... yeah that would have gotten me real far
2007-02-24T10:54:01  <tpollari> because teachers abdicate their responsibility when a computer is involved much like parents abdicate theirs when a tv is involved?
2007-02-24T10:54:14  <dijix> wam_: I think it's more of the "public school eLearning" that doesn't work well
2007-02-24T10:54:15  * ErikRose puts a warm laptop on his lap.
2007-02-24T10:54:16  <_chris_> tpollari: exactly!
2007-02-24T10:54:24  <dijix> I agree tpollari
2007-02-24T10:54:26  <maelztrom> Just like any other tool, a computer doesn't miraculously solve incompetence
2007-02-24T10:54:38  <_chris_> maelztrom: it just makes you a faster fool..  :)
2007-02-24T10:54:40  <creiht> "I'm not a bad teacher... It's the computer things that cause you kid to not learn"
2007-02-24T10:54:47  <gps> apple ii logo rocked for me in elementary school but i was already a geek by the time we were pointed at it
2007-02-24T10:54:59  <ErikRose> I think we should abdicate the whole of the public school curriculum to the Rubik's Cube.
2007-02-24T10:55:07  <dijix> all hail the cube
2007-02-24T10:55:07  <maelztrom> Yes, I love that my coding now lets me make a mistake millions of times faster :)  They catch up to me so much quicker that way
2007-02-24T10:55:11  <ErikRose> Discuss amongst yourselves.
2007-02-24T10:55:12  *** brett_h has quit IRC
2007-02-24T10:55:15  <coderanger_> But I fail to see why teachers being idiots is a reason to sabotage the students
2007-02-24T10:55:37  <_chris_> gps: i loved the logo on apple ii too.  i had a friend who was musically talented.  and we used that tone command in logo, along with sheet music, to program music to come out of the apple.  it was awesome.  :)
2007-02-24T10:55:38  <wam_> kid should be taught about bookmarks
2007-02-24T10:55:41  <_moshez> yay doing stuff multi-culturally
2007-02-24T10:55:47  *** __jt__ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T10:55:49  <_moshez> I also want to do stuff multi-culturally
2007-02-24T10:55:51  *** benbangert has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T10:56:06  <ErikRose> wam_: Heh, no bookmarks in Flash.
2007-02-24T10:56:08  <tpollari> coderanger_: well, if the teachers are just going to screw it up, why pump the money into IT 'solutions'?
2007-02-24T10:56:32  <ErikRose> THe bike shed problem
2007-02-24T10:56:52  <_moshez> hey! this is like the olpc's view-source button
2007-02-24T10:56:59  <_moshez> good thing she has original thoughts
2007-02-24T10:57:06  <ErikRose> _moshez: That's SmalLTalk for ya. :-D
2007-02-24T10:57:18  <ErikRose> The OLPC's just 30 years late.
2007-02-24T10:57:22  <coderanger_> tpollari: Because _some_ kids will still get a benefit, and bad teachers will be bad teachers even without a computer
2007-02-24T10:57:40  <coderanger_> tpollari: Teaching to the lowest common denominator is a bad policy
2007-02-24T10:57:53  <dijix> tpollari: also so the politicians can say they're working to improve the educational system
2007-02-24T10:57:59  <tpollari> coderanger_: I wasn't saying I supported the idea, just that such thinking might be the answer to your question
2007-02-24T10:58:01  <benbangert> coderanger_: That's No Child Left Behind in a nutshell
2007-02-24T10:58:08  <tpollari> or an answer
2007-02-24T10:58:43  <gps> conferenc could use a squid cache for presentations that put up urls
2007-02-24T10:58:45  <tpollari> coderanger_:  I agree completely
2007-02-24T10:59:30  <maelztrom> oh, does anybody here still want that olpc zip I was pulling yesterday?
2007-02-24T10:59:43  <gps> i think coderanger_ would be pressed to find anyone that disagrees
2007-02-24T10:59:44  <maelztrom> finally got the damned thing last night, but figured anybody who was interested probably got it last night
2007-02-24T11:00:01  <gps> olpc zip?
2007-02-24T11:00:08  <dijix> now now, No Child Left Behind is helping raise a new generation of good consumers
2007-02-24T11:00:11  <_chris_> i was wondering -
2007-02-24T11:00:16  <_chris_> a lot of people here
2007-02-24T11:00:22  <maelztrom> I pulled down a vmware image of the OLPC setup yesterday
2007-02-24T11:00:23  <gps> haha jijix
2007-02-24T11:00:25  <gldnspud> no consumer left behind
2007-02-24T11:00:26  <_chris_> wget the same thing (a presentation for a talk, or maybe the OLPC zip)
2007-02-24T11:00:26  <gps> dijix
2007-02-24T11:00:30  <_chris_> would squid help us next year?
2007-02-24T11:00:38  <_chris_> so that rather than 10 people using the internets to get the 50MB .zip file
2007-02-24T11:00:42  <_chris_> we have one guy and it's cached?
2007-02-24T11:00:42  <maelztrom> (of course, after downloading all day in the conference yesterday, zip file was corrupt! grr)
2007-02-24T11:00:46  <creiht> _chris_: I think it would be awesome
2007-02-24T11:00:49  <wam_> yeah, big local cache would help a lot...
2007-02-24T11:01:03  <creiht> It would even cache the commonly visited sites
2007-02-24T11:01:04  <_chris_> i'll ask sean about it later on today...
2007-02-24T11:01:07  <__jt__> hmmmm... where is my name-drop-bingo card...
2007-02-24T11:01:11  <_chris_> like us.pycon.org :)
2007-02-24T11:01:13  <creiht> So we could check slashdot and things like that
2007-02-24T11:01:14  <creiht> haha
2007-02-24T11:01:18  <_chris_> yup
2007-02-24T11:02:12  <gps> isn't that how brits learn english? ;)
2007-02-24T11:02:17  <wam_> that's a bold statement
2007-02-24T11:02:20  <creiht> __jt__: I knew I forgot to do something like that last night :)  Should we have a BOF tonight to make bingo cards?
2007-02-24T11:02:31  <wam_> Are there no english phds in the audience?
2007-02-24T11:02:59  <dijix> let's 'ave a spot 'o tea, guv
2007-02-24T11:03:14  *** benbangert has quit IRC
2007-02-24T11:03:19  <creiht> watch yo talkin bout wilis?
2007-02-24T11:03:41  <wam_> no testing to show tech makes a difference, yet she also blasts teachers who feel they need to teach to the test...
2007-02-24T11:03:42  <gps> one of the lobby public terminal computers could easily be made to run squid in about 10 mins
2007-02-24T11:03:47  <_chris_> *raises hand*
2007-02-24T11:03:59  <__jt__> what the hell is the point of this. gaaaaaaaaah
2007-02-24T11:04:27  <grover2> but doesn't squid need to run on the gateway?
2007-02-24T11:04:42  <_chris_> grover2: i think you can run it transparently
2007-02-24T11:05:02  <wam_> or whether your in a neighborhood where the laptops are getting stolen out of school or not...
2007-02-24T11:05:14  <_chris_> where you don't even assign an ip address to it's interfaces
2007-02-24T11:05:16  <jerry_s> Hm.  In Canada, the strongest correlation of if a kid goes to university is the income of the parents.
2007-02-24T11:05:18  <dijix> whoa.. parent involvement..  get out of here!
2007-02-24T11:05:20  <creiht> ha
2007-02-24T11:05:21  <_chris_> yes -
2007-02-24T11:05:24  * grover2 wonders if its my cellphone making the mic clicks
2007-02-24T11:05:28  <_chris_> this salary increase stuff is bogus
2007-02-24T11:05:30  <creiht> wrong
2007-02-24T11:05:50  <_chris_> if you factor in the fact that most teachers only work 9 months out of the year
2007-02-24T11:05:50  <maelztrom> You also wondering where that statitic was from _chris_ ?
2007-02-24T11:05:58  <_chris_> and that the average teacher salary is like $50k per year
2007-02-24T11:06:00  <creiht> Calculate how much a teacher makes per hour, when you factor in the summer vacation and you might change your mind about how much teachers get paid
2007-02-24T11:06:01  <_chris_> it's NOT that bad.
2007-02-24T11:06:13  <_chris_> right exactly
2007-02-24T11:06:28  <__jt__> but the variance is quite high
2007-02-24T11:06:32  <gps> yes a page of references and explanations for statements is needed for this talk
2007-02-24T11:06:50  <tpollari> _chris_: I agree, kinda, but you have to look at the opportunity cost of being a teacher -- the 3 month summer job options usually aren't that high paying or exciting, are they?
2007-02-24T11:07:00  <Veloso> 97% of 99% of schools have broadband, so don't make any assumptions
2007-02-24T11:07:01  <coderanger_> I just want to scream "So teach them!"
2007-02-24T11:07:08  <gps> i -think- she was saying the money allocated was 1% more not the money paid to an individual.  not sure.  or else it would be an inflation adjusted number
2007-02-24T11:07:09  <__jt__> teachers with phds at public schools on long island making 120k, teachers deep in the city making 30k...
2007-02-24T11:07:12  <gldnspud> coderanger_: go teach them then!
2007-02-24T11:07:29  <_chris_> tpollari: you're right.  that's the downside.
2007-02-24T11:07:46  <creiht> PE
2007-02-24T11:07:48  <creiht> :)
2007-02-24T11:07:51  <coderanger_> gldnspud: I do, one of my jobs is campus tech support and training ;-)
2007-02-24T11:07:53  <_chris_> that's surprising
2007-02-24T11:07:57  <_chris_> wonder why it's english
2007-02-24T11:08:07  <gldnspud> coderanger_: awesome :)
2007-02-24T11:08:07  <creiht> Most computers are in the classroom now
2007-02-24T11:08:11  <maelztrom> nobody accepts handwritten papers anymore
2007-02-24T11:08:21  <wam_> What the hell is the problem? the teachers who don't know/learn how to use the resources available to them and who don't actually use the tool for what it's good at and use it as a babysitter?  no wonder they aren't getting payraises... I stand by Steve Jobs on this.
2007-02-24T11:08:23  <tpollari> _chris_: So, I mean, for some, the 3 month vacation is a big perk, but for others, it's an obstacle
2007-02-24T11:08:36  <_chris_> tpollari: *nods*
2007-02-24T11:08:39  <creiht> Anyone sneek into the novel network at school to play network snipes?
2007-02-24T11:08:47  <creiht> The first deathmatch! :)
2007-02-24T11:08:53  <gps> steal the stadium seats, sell them and buy paper!
2007-02-24T11:08:55  <_chris_> i hate paper :)
2007-02-24T11:09:11  <_chris_> gps: lol
2007-02-24T11:09:41  <wam_> cause if they don't control students internet use, the number one library use wouldn't be history and english, it'd be porn...
2007-02-24T11:09:44  <ecn> get rid of stadium
2007-02-24T11:09:47  <gps> and sell the sports team into slavert while you're at it
2007-02-24T11:09:51  <gps> y
2007-02-24T11:10:06  <_chris_> i wonder how old these statistics are
2007-02-24T11:10:26  <_chris_> you can get el cheapo dells for like $350.  i know that's a lot of money to a lot of people
2007-02-24T11:10:41  <_chris_> but compared to 5 years ago that's pretty good.  and compared to 10 years ago it's fantastic
2007-02-24T11:10:45  <gps> in the us you can yes.
2007-02-24T11:10:52  <gldnspud> so what if in 40 years we don't have enough raw natural resources to support all these damned computers?
2007-02-24T11:11:03  <_chris_> if the studies were performed 5 - 10 years ago then the barriers to entry for compys in the home were preventative...  but that may no longer be the case.
2007-02-24T11:11:35  <gps> its still the case.
2007-02-24T11:11:38  <maelztrom> I actually knew a PhD CS student who didn't own a computer for his first three years in the program
2007-02-24T11:11:49  <creiht> haha
2007-02-24T11:11:49  <__jt__> support, infrastructure, effective use are much more important
2007-02-24T11:11:50  <maelztrom> cost is still a real barrier for some people even in the US
2007-02-24T11:11:53  <creiht> The SRI reports are a joke
2007-02-24T11:11:59  <maelztrom> (and by knew...I meant...as of last year)
2007-02-24T11:12:04  <creiht> I tried using those for marketing reasons
2007-02-24T11:12:08  <creiht> They are horrible
2007-02-24T11:12:09  <__jt__> we could come up with the money to send every kid home with a laptop, but then what. meh.
2007-02-24T11:12:20  <gps> hehe maelztrom
2007-02-24T11:12:26  <ecn> I've thrown out old computers so much faster than the ones I learned to program on
2007-02-24T11:12:29  *** pfein_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T11:12:32  <ecn> like, my last cell phone
2007-02-24T11:12:58  <wam_> Flash and adobe are standard software?
2007-02-24T11:12:59  <gps> like my old routers
2007-02-24T11:13:11  <gps> adobe means acroread
2007-02-24T11:13:11  <ErikRose> Adobe what? It bothers me when people just say "Adobe".
2007-02-24T11:13:14  <ecn> so really, you could use a really crappy computer to learn to program, get a degree... even get a PhD
2007-02-24T11:13:16  <_moshez> it's standard if it comes from big corps
2007-02-24T11:13:17  <gps> agreed ErikRose
2007-02-24T11:13:18  <ecn> really
2007-02-24T11:13:31  <ErikRose> Glad I'm not just weird. ;-)
2007-02-24T11:13:34  <_chris_> _moshez: *nods*
2007-02-24T11:13:38  <maelztrom> laugh.  After that one teacher got arrested because of porn popups on their computer, I don't think I'd ever want anything to do with american school computing
2007-02-24T11:14:12  <wam_> ARGGGG she hounded on OLPC as not being a big thing early in her talk, and now hilighting limitations of end user's lack of available computer time
2007-02-24T11:14:49  <_moshez> yay for porn
2007-02-24T11:15:23  <dijix> yay for doing it with others
2007-02-24T11:15:27  <gps> olpcs have a camera?
2007-02-24T11:15:35  <_chris_> gps: ya - crazy huh?
2007-02-24T11:15:35  <wam_> yeah...
2007-02-24T11:15:43  <gps> hehe yeah
2007-02-24T11:15:44  <wam_> integrated webcam that take snapshots
2007-02-24T11:16:37  <__jt__> so... should we expect them to be reading in kindergarten or not?!
2007-02-24T11:16:45  <creiht> Shouldn't she be telling this stuff to teachers instead of a lot of geeks that can probably do little to nothing about it?
2007-02-24T11:16:53  <gldnspud> imho,     aloippc (at least one involved parent per child) is more important than olpc
2007-02-24T11:16:54  <gps> my 4 year old nephew can read russian and english
2007-02-24T11:17:05  <coderanger_> the new generation?
2007-02-24T11:17:10  <tpollari> okay, I give in... her data is old.
2007-02-24T11:17:12  <dijix> I wonder what kind of support system is going to be needed for olpc...  are we going to need our own kind of peace corps that runs around and helps out end-users in small villages.. pyCorps?
2007-02-24T11:17:14  <gps> because his mom is extremely dedicated
2007-02-24T11:17:51  <gps> i wouldn't expect it from everyone but its certianly possible for many
2007-02-24T11:17:58  <wam_> or block their access to just the library
2007-02-24T11:18:05  <maelztrom> Well..you ever hear about teaching infants sign language gps?
2007-02-24T11:18:16  <gldnspud> creiht: geeks that are parents -can- do things about it
2007-02-24T11:18:17  <gps> yeah pretty neat
2007-02-24T11:18:25  <gps> i don't think ilearned to read until kindergarten myself
2007-02-24T11:18:30  *** matt_c has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T11:18:31  <ErikRose> I've got to say—I know a lot of home-schooled kids, and they're brilliant and act socially like they're 30.
2007-02-24T11:18:31  <creiht> gldnspud: That is true
2007-02-24T11:18:43  <dijix> maelztrom: that's neat stuff - I wonder what kind of long-term implications such learning could have on a large enough group
2007-02-24T11:18:45  <ErikRose> (They have quality parents.)
2007-02-24T11:18:48  <maelztrom> hard to do things when in some states it's basically illegal to send your kids anywhere but public or private school...
2007-02-24T11:19:04  <maelztrom> I know there were a few cases in new york a while ago where parents were arrested for neglect for homeschooling
2007-02-24T11:19:10  *** yello has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T11:19:11  <rmunn> ErikRose: Ditto. In my experience, parents who choose to home-school are parents who actually care about their kids' experience, are involved, etc.
2007-02-24T11:19:13  <gps> thats creepy when they're only 9 ErikRose
2007-02-24T11:19:17  <tpollari> ErikRose:  is that a good thing or a bad thing?
2007-02-24T11:19:24  <ErikRose> I don't know. :-)
2007-02-24T11:19:28  <gps> hehe
2007-02-24T11:19:30  *** jgraves has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T11:19:30  <__jt__> other way around, US universities are just a service to the rest of the world at this point, especially in science and engineering
2007-02-24T11:19:39  <ErikRose> That's a psychology question: what's "unhealthy"?
2007-02-24T11:19:47  <ErikRose> It usually amounts to "Does it bother you?"
2007-02-24T11:19:50  <dijix> speaking of blocking and filtering... is porn going to be a problem for olpc?
2007-02-24T11:19:55  <tpollari> I mean, genius, great, but social development and relating to your peers (age and otherwise) is huge
2007-02-24T11:19:58  <rmunn> Lots of people who homeschool are looking at their public schools, saying "I don't like the results", and are doing it themselves instead.
2007-02-24T11:20:18  <ErikRose> Ever take one of those "Do you have OCD?" tests? Most of the questions are on the order of "Does it interfere with what you want to be doing?"
2007-02-24T11:20:18  <grover2> no it's a service of the world to the US, feeding kids for 20 years before they come here for final education, and to live :)
2007-02-24T11:20:24  <gps> dijix: yes
2007-02-24T11:20:24  <__jt__> yay for stratification!
2007-02-24T11:20:26  <tpollari> I mean, life is still about who you know and your social connections even if it is becoming more about what you know too...
2007-02-24T11:20:30  <creiht> HMOs for education!
2007-02-24T11:20:41  <_chris_> did she say "python" at all?
2007-02-24T11:21:03  <creiht> Ahhh
2007-02-24T11:21:03  <ErikRose> I'm glad I had my TI in school so I could program while the boring class went by.
2007-02-24T11:21:04  <rmunn> As for the socializing thing... I've never seen it be a problem. Kids participate in sports teams, choirs, and so on, just like public- or private-school kids.
2007-02-24T11:21:05  <_chris_> maybe this is the python
2007-02-24T11:21:06  <creiht> Here is the sell
2007-02-24T11:21:08  <dijix> thought she wasn't selling anything..
2007-02-24T11:21:19  <rmunn> How much socializing goes on *during classroom time* anyway? :-)
2007-02-24T11:21:21  <grover2> well she said "turtle", so reptiles were mentioned...
2007-02-24T11:21:27  <ErikRose> Turtles are amphibians.
2007-02-24T11:21:35  <gps> haha
2007-02-24T11:21:38  <gps> um
2007-02-24T11:21:39  <wam_> umm I don't think they are...
2007-02-24T11:21:45  <ErikRose> No, I'm wrong.
2007-02-24T11:21:45  <tpollari> rmunn:  I  remember my school time and the answer is a lot.  an awful lot
2007-02-24T11:21:47  <gps> speaking of education....
2007-02-24T11:21:49  <grover2> hehe
2007-02-24T11:21:54  <creiht> Last thing teachers need is yet another piece of technology that is developed by people that are out of touch with current education
2007-02-24T11:22:00  <rmunn> tpollari: how much learning was going on at the same time then? :-)
2007-02-24T11:22:09  <tpollari> rmunn: lots.
2007-02-24T11:22:13  <_chris_> oh my bad
2007-02-24T11:22:16  <_chris_> she mentioned zope
2007-02-24T11:22:17  <grover2> zope
2007-02-24T11:22:18  <_chris_> that counts )
2007-02-24T11:22:19  <maelztrom> More interesting question with the OLPC...
2007-02-24T11:22:21  <_chris_> :)
2007-02-24T11:22:26  <maelztrom> you give a bunch of teenagers laptops with a webcam
2007-02-24T11:22:32  <dijix> and all we could do was pass notes.. we didn't have text messaging
2007-02-24T11:22:33  <rmunn> tpollari: So you managed to talk to each other and listen to the teacher at the same time? I never could do that. When I was talking, I wasn't listening.
2007-02-24T11:22:36  <maelztrom> how long until pictures of uestionable legality show up everywhere?
2007-02-24T11:22:41  <dijix> maelztrom: it will happen
2007-02-24T11:22:44  <gps> 18 seconds
2007-02-24T11:22:47  * maelztrom nods to dijix 
2007-02-24T11:22:57  <gps> (15 of which are used to figure out how to open the box)
2007-02-24T11:23:05  <dijix> hehe
2007-02-24T11:23:09  <_chris_> lol
2007-02-24T11:23:13  *** benbangert has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T11:23:14  <tpollari> rmunn: it's social development and social interaction -- not necessarily 'socalizing' as the layman would use the word.
2007-02-24T11:23:28  <maelztrom> I mean I get the feeling these are really meant to start with people at like age 6
2007-02-24T11:23:30  *** dstanek has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T11:23:36  <rmunn> tpollari: Ah, got it. What you were saying wasn't what I was hearing.
2007-02-24T11:23:38  <maelztrom> but the ultimate goal is the tool in the hands of everyone
2007-02-24T11:23:42  <dstanek> dare i ask...how was the keynote?
2007-02-24T11:23:59  <wam_> dstanek you were lucky to have missed it
2007-02-24T11:24:02  <rmunn> dstanek: Should have been a lightning talk.
2007-02-24T11:24:02  <__jt__> it... won't... end...
2007-02-24T11:24:05  <gldnspud> dstanek: it's not "how was" yet :)
2007-02-24T11:24:05  <tpollari> rmunn: and yes, actually, I got asked to repeat what a teacher "had just said" in 7th grade because I was talking to another student and I repeated word for word what she had said over the last 10 minutes
2007-02-24T11:24:11  <gps> and for anyone questioning in class socialization... hand a class of students olpcs and how different is that from what we're doing right now while shes up there talking?
2007-02-24T11:24:21  <dstanek> gldnspud: still going on?
2007-02-24T11:24:27  <gldnspud> yes
2007-02-24T11:24:30  <wam_> yeah...
2007-02-24T11:24:32  <__jt__> we were waiting for the point, but the point is apparently an advertisement
2007-02-24T11:24:34  <dstanek> lol
2007-02-24T11:24:40  <_chris_> yay for python toolS!
2007-02-24T11:24:58  <rmunn> Well, at least Python (or at least Python tools) have been mentioned now.
2007-02-24T11:24:59  <dijix> true, but questionable material will end up out there..  will politicians step in to help protect our children from the dangers of that anarchy?  ;)
2007-02-24T11:25:02  <tpollari> oh wait, she did mention zope2 like 5-10 minutes into her talk
2007-02-24T11:25:08  <creiht> hehe
2007-02-24T11:25:10  <__jt__> yay, SQLAlachemy is on the screen, I suddenly love this talk and have forgotten the 45 minutes of pain.
2007-02-24T11:25:12  <_chris_> only took 1 hour and 25 minutes to get to it :)
2007-02-24T11:25:12  <Veloso> Yep, there was the Python-related slide.  Thanks for coming!
2007-02-24T11:25:16  <creiht> The busines plan doesn't matter
2007-02-24T11:25:17  <gps> argh xml
2007-02-24T11:25:23  * ErikRose wishes his MacBook's screen bent back farther.
2007-02-24T11:25:27  <maelztrom> Yes--the Christian Coalition against OLPC!
2007-02-24T11:25:27  <gps> haha jt
2007-02-24T11:25:39  <ErikRose> gps: I use ArghUml.
2007-02-24T11:25:45  <rmunn> Well, sometimes XML is the right choice. Can't say for this one either way, but sometimes it is.
2007-02-24T11:25:46  <ErikRose> Heh, I'm going to start calling it that.
2007-02-24T11:25:54  <ErikRose> It's more accurate.
2007-02-24T11:26:05  <creiht> 1. Bash Technolody in education
2007-02-24T11:26:11  <_chris_> lol
2007-02-24T11:26:12  <_chris_> here it comes
2007-02-24T11:26:13  <_chris_> :)
2007-02-24T11:26:15  <creiht> 2. Make new technology for education
2007-02-24T11:26:17  <creiht> 3. ?
2007-02-24T11:26:18  <tpollari> 4. Profit!
2007-02-24T11:26:19  <_chris_> Profit!
2007-02-24T11:26:19  <creiht> 4. Profit
2007-02-24T11:26:21  <creiht> haha
2007-02-24T11:26:41  <wam_> So elearning in her talk was what exactly?  Apparently it doesn't extend to her pet Eproject?
2007-02-24T11:27:25  <dstanek> maybe we need a keynote screening for next year
2007-02-24T11:27:33  <dijix> maelztrom: I wonder what political stance will be made since most of the people being helped by this system won't necessarily be pro-US
2007-02-24T11:27:36  <dstanek> presenter merit may just not be enough
2007-02-24T11:27:48  <rmunn> Get a summary of the talk.
2007-02-24T11:27:50  <wam_> ditto for sponsor lightening talks
2007-02-24T11:28:16  <maelztrom> I'm a paranoid dijix--I figure that's part of the motiviation behind OLPC ultimately.
2007-02-24T11:28:16  <wam_> "We're hiring" should n't be the basis of a talk...
2007-02-24T11:28:27  <gps> nor should "we're not hiring"
2007-02-24T11:28:27  <maelztrom> give people the tools to learn...our tools--so we can brainwash them
2007-02-24T11:29:08  <__jt__> how does this address anything she talked about before??!!?
2007-02-24T11:29:12  <gps> heh i'm not that paranoid
2007-02-24T11:29:13  <wam_> API's which apparently the end teachers are going to be expected to learn?
2007-02-24T11:29:20  <maelztrom> I know a lot of people in here are from overseas...how much of our PR poisoning actually gets over there?
2007-02-24T11:29:31  *** xanalogica has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T11:29:36  <gps> they're bricks without people to encourage use and educate with them, not effective brainwashing tools
2007-02-24T11:29:50  <__jt__> wow! an online quiz system! welcome to 1992!
2007-02-24T11:29:56  <__jt__> oh, but witH AJAX! WHEEEEEEE!
2007-02-24T11:29:56  <creiht> Wow... She is basically re-implementing waht every other educational publishing company does
2007-02-24T11:29:59  * __jt__ snaps
2007-02-24T11:30:16  <gps> *funding!*
2007-02-24T11:30:26  <xanalogica> I want the SF concept of a "teaching machine"
2007-02-24T11:30:29  <creiht> I wrote that 10 years ago :)
2007-02-24T11:30:35  <creiht> But much better :)
2007-02-24T11:30:39  <dijix> maelztrom: that would be the only way a lot of people would allow such a thing..  I'm sure Microsoft just loves the idea of mass introduction to open source ideas, too
2007-02-24T11:30:43  <_moshez> maaaan
2007-02-24T11:30:48  <_moshez> is this over at some point
2007-02-24T11:30:59  <_moshez> I mean, fuck, I managed to join facebook
2007-02-24T11:31:02  <_moshez> and friend people
2007-02-24T11:31:03  *** tpollari has quit IRC
2007-02-24T11:31:07  <gps> i'm hittin the snacks now
2007-02-24T11:31:08  *** yello_downunder has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T11:31:10  <retracile> I want "A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer"
2007-02-24T11:31:20  <_moshez> oh man
2007-02-24T11:31:20  * dijix nods to retracile
2007-02-24T11:31:20  <rmunn> retracile: Ooh, yes.
2007-02-24T11:31:29  <xanalogica> retracile, exactly!
2007-02-24T11:31:30  <maelztrom> of course they would dijix--that would open up the routes for the microsoft-mcdonalds corporate annexation of mexico for the opensource infringment of microsoft copyright .. :)
2007-02-24T11:31:31  <_moshez> the olpc is so "Primer"
2007-02-24T11:31:33  <__jt__> I have to know how it ends...
2007-02-24T11:31:58  <_chris_> __jt__: lol
2007-02-24T11:32:08  <creiht> I wonder if she realizes that a majority of public school are not going to run open source software?
2007-02-24T11:32:25  <rmunn> What a lousy set of questions, too. No kid is going to know those answers.
2007-02-24T11:32:34  <maelztrom> I mean only slightly more seriously--I can absolutely imagine microsoft considering it beneficial--because somebody with a computer is at least a potential consumer for them
2007-02-24T11:32:44  <dijix> maelztrom: you hear of this push in the US administration to create an EU-type situation in North America.. Mexico, US, and Canada would basically become one.   (of course, I'm glossing over the details)
2007-02-24T11:32:55  * maelztrom looks at dijix in fear
2007-02-24T11:32:58  <maelztrom> what?
2007-02-24T11:33:03  <_moshez> dude
2007-02-24T11:33:04  <wam_> this sucks.... how does *this* address the creativity problem she harped on earlier
2007-02-24T11:33:08  <dijix> let me find a link.. it's recent
2007-02-24T11:33:11  <_moshez> it does case insensitive string match
2007-02-24T11:33:12  <rmunn> dijix: You mean dropping the trade borders (NAFTA), or something else?
2007-02-24T11:33:15  <_moshez> the future is truly here
2007-02-24T11:33:49  <ErikRose> dijix: Do we get to homogenize the temperature across the continent?
2007-02-24T11:33:52  <__jt__> stop it! we get it! christ, she even name dropped the learning company which developed this decades ago. yes, now with the power of the internet, wooohooooo
2007-02-24T11:34:03  <xanalogica> "A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer" - would be banned, it has satanic elements of magic and quests and stuff
2007-02-24T11:34:05  <benbangert> wam_: thats what typically happens when you have non-teachers try and come up with teaching solutions. Imagine if you had non-programmers try and tell programmers how to 'program right' so that the average person wouldn't have their computer crash anymore. It's nonsense.
2007-02-24T11:34:16  <creiht> __jt__: Doh I missed it... what name did she drop?
2007-02-24T11:34:27  <__jt__> if you hear screaming from the back of the room....
2007-02-24T11:34:34  <creiht> benbangert: Exactly... The company I used to work for was all made up of ex-teachers
2007-02-24T11:34:39  <creiht> We made cool stuff
2007-02-24T11:34:49  <creiht> like I said... 10 years ago :)
2007-02-24T11:34:53  <maelztrom> michael bernstein...any relation to DJB?
2007-02-24T11:35:01  <__jt__> at the beginning, the founder of the learning company, can't remember now, not important.
2007-02-24T11:35:01  <_moshez> nope
2007-02-24T11:35:06  <__jt__> me, I miss rocky's boots....
2007-02-24T11:35:14  <Veloso> Robot Odyssey!
2007-02-24T11:35:17  <rmunn> benbangert: Ivory tower syndrome. Practical experience teaches you a lot...
2007-02-24T11:35:21  <creiht> rocky's boots was awsome!
2007-02-24T11:35:28  <creiht> On my IBM PCjr even :)
2007-02-24T11:35:31  <rmunn> Wait a minute. Whhy am I appaluding?
2007-02-24T11:35:32  <benbangert> rmunn: yup, absolutely
2007-02-24T11:35:35  <creiht> haha
2007-02-24T11:35:37  <_moshez> are we clapping 'cause it's over
2007-02-24T11:35:38  <jgraves> are we clapping because it's over?
2007-02-24T11:35:45  <creiht> whoa
2007-02-24T11:35:45  <dijix> heheh
2007-02-24T11:35:47  <_chris_> "thank you!  i'm here all week!"
2007-02-24T11:35:49  *** pobrien has quit IRC
2007-02-24T11:35:52  *** nerd_alert has quit IRC
2007-02-24T11:35:54  *** jerry_s has quit IRC
2007-02-24T11:35:58  <jgraves> damn _moshez
2007-02-24T11:36:02  <__jt__> fooooooood
2007-02-24T11:36:04  *** __jt__ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T11:36:08  <dijix> maelztrom: can't find it just yet.. but yea, a super-NAFTA..
2007-02-24T11:36:16  <rmunn> CAFTA?
2007-02-24T11:36:16  *** _moshez has quit IRC
2007-02-24T11:36:18  <dijix> "Try the veal"
2007-02-24T11:36:24  *** Veloso has quit IRC
2007-02-24T11:36:35  *** gldnspud has quit IRC
2007-02-24T11:36:38  <_chris_> heading to SQLAlchemy
2007-02-24T11:36:38  <_chris_> ttyl
2007-02-24T11:36:41  *** _chris_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T11:36:42  <grover2> and, she was running windows
2007-02-24T11:36:42  *** DuncF has quit IRC
2007-02-24T11:37:13  *** creiht has quit IRC
2007-02-24T11:37:16  *** jgraves has quit IRC
2007-02-24T11:37:27  *** ecn has left #pycon
2007-02-24T11:37:42  *** benbangert has quit IRC
2007-02-24T11:37:47  *** rmunn has quit IRC
2007-02-24T11:38:58  *** xanalogica has left #pycon
2007-02-24T11:39:43  *** coderanger_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T11:40:08  *** rmunn has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T11:40:21  *** yello has quit IRC
2007-02-24T11:40:30  *** ErikRose has quit IRC
2007-02-24T11:41:19  *** benbangert has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T11:41:49  <gps> dijix: nafta?
2007-02-24T11:42:05  <gps> heh super nafta
2007-02-24T11:42:29  *** coderanger__ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T11:42:30  *** coderanger__ is now known as coderanger_
2007-02-24T11:44:13  *** jerry_s has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T11:44:35  *** DuncF has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T11:45:41  *** dijix has quit IRC
2007-02-24T11:45:53  <wam_> lets just try for now to forget the wasted 90 minutes and move on....
2007-02-24T11:46:16  <wam_> yay... SQLAlchemy here.
2007-02-24T11:46:16  *** dijix2 has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T11:46:24  *** dijix2 is now known as dijix
2007-02-24T11:46:25  *** yello has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T11:46:43  *** tpollari has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T11:47:31  *** yello_downunder has quit IRC
2007-02-24T11:47:44  <grover2> please everyone turn on your laptops to warm the room
2007-02-24T11:48:29  *** pfein has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T11:48:43  <tortoise> wam_: haha... what was everyone expecting... I didn't come to 60 of those minutes because I knew better =]
2007-02-24T11:49:21  *** _chris_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T11:49:22  <dijix> well, I'm ready for some SQLAlchemy goodness
2007-02-24T11:49:33  <pfein> scaling here
2007-02-24T11:49:43  <wam_> I was expecting a keynote on the same par as yesterday's.... silly me
2007-02-24T11:49:45  <_chris_> dijix: i'm in sqlalchemy too
2007-02-24T11:50:00  <tortoise> pfein: tell me what he says about scaling
2007-02-24T11:50:05  *** obfuskate has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T11:50:10  *** obfuskate has quit IRC
2007-02-24T11:51:51  *** gldnspud has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T11:52:09  *** msjohnso has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T11:52:13  *** obfuskate has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T11:52:38  *** ErikRose has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T11:52:47  <_chris_> this sounds like a good talk :)
2007-02-24T11:53:04  <ErikRose> Scaling?
2007-02-24T11:53:11  <_chris_> no - sqlalchemy
2007-02-24T11:53:18  <gps> scaling time
2007-02-24T11:53:32  *** ErikRose changes topic to "Today's logs: http://weblion.psu.edu/pyconlogs/2007/02/24.txt Some notes: https://weblion.psu.edu/trac/weblion/wiki/PyCon"
2007-02-24T11:53:36  *** Six`oh`six has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T11:53:39  *** jng has quit IRC
2007-02-24T11:56:07  *** __jt__ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T11:56:07  <grover2> pinch point = bottleneck
2007-02-24T11:56:19  *** ecn has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T11:56:38  *** greenfngrs has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T11:56:51  *** dstanek has quit IRC
2007-02-24T11:57:07  <gps> haha "40 is a lot" in this talk
2007-02-24T11:57:17  <maelztrom> If only there was an application to solve the problem of having a badly designed database, 30k lines of legacy code utilizing said database, and no time to refactor the whole bloody thing :9
2007-02-24T11:57:52  <dijix> what talk are you in gps?
2007-02-24T11:57:59  <gps> scaling
2007-02-24T11:58:02  <thatch> From the scaling talk... "86M page views is a problem we'd all like to have."
2007-02-24T11:58:12  <pfein> We've always called those "high class problems"
2007-02-24T11:58:15  <wam_> hmm... shutil.rmtree() ?
2007-02-24T11:58:26  <gps> they called it caviar problems
2007-02-24T11:58:49  <dijix> kind of like having to pay taxes on my billions of dollars..
2007-02-24T11:58:52  *** creiht has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T11:59:09  <maelztrom> laugh
2007-02-24T12:00:46  <pfein> Anyone here build webapps *without* a database? (seriously)
2007-02-24T12:00:57  <dijix> that PYAR banner in the SQLAlchemy room (upper right) is sweet
2007-02-24T12:01:00  <ErikRose> I wonder if they know about ab.
2007-02-24T12:01:02  *** dand has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T12:01:03  <__jt__> if only all my users had the decency to spread their hits uniformly across the day...
2007-02-24T12:01:12  <gps> do gross hacks that abuse the file systems and big plaintext files count ;)
2007-02-24T12:01:33  <pfein> gps: sure
2007-02-24T12:01:35  <thatch> pfein: My first webapp actually wrote csv... then I had over 30 albums and went "oops, I want a minor schema change.  guess not."
2007-02-24T12:01:52  *** dand has left #pycon
2007-02-24T12:01:53  <__jt__> "Requests per second:    59.06 [#/sec] (mean)", hrm... guess this talk isn't going to help me.
2007-02-24T12:02:00  <wam_> I have a big HTML report generator that sucks all it's data in from a combo of CSV, XML, and structured data (log) files.... builds static pages though
2007-02-24T12:02:14  *** gldnspud has quit IRC
2007-02-24T12:02:17  <thatch> __jt__: remember this is on their laptop..
2007-02-24T12:02:27  <pfein> gps: I'm all for filesystem abuse.
2007-02-24T12:02:31  <__jt__> but 40 is a lot, right? ;)
2007-02-24T12:02:59  <gps> unfortunately the gross hack was a friend of mines and i rewrote it last year to use sqlite and sqlobject as an exercise
2007-02-24T12:03:00  <thatch> __jt__: the keynote today specifically said that 40 is a small number, don't you remember?
2007-02-24T12:03:14  <__jt__> I'm so confused!
2007-02-24T12:03:35  <yello> yeah, 40 nukes, I mean, everyone has that!
2007-02-24T12:03:38  *** nerd_alert has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T12:03:52  <__jt__> If we could just establish some common ground regarding the scale of numbers...
2007-02-24T12:03:54  <maelztrom> Everyone who's a superpower does :0
2007-02-24T12:04:15  <tortoise> dijix: ya that PYAR logo is kick ass, who knew the argentina pythoners were so metal
2007-02-24T12:04:18  <tpollari> and teach it well, with computers...
2007-02-24T12:04:21  *** jgraves has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T12:04:40  <pfein> If the big insight of version 0.4 is "use memcached!", that's gonna be a real letdown.
2007-02-24T12:04:41  <gps> challenge them at guitar hero
2007-02-24T12:05:06  *** retracile has quit IRC
2007-02-24T12:05:17  <creiht> haha
2007-02-24T12:05:54  *** retracile has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T12:06:18  *** pobrien has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T12:06:54  <pfein> http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/pear/0.8
2007-02-24T12:06:58  *** jerry_s has quit IRC
2007-02-24T12:07:40  *** vslashg has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T12:07:52  *** vslashg is now known as Veloso
2007-02-24T12:08:31  <gps> ugh mod_python
2007-02-24T12:08:36  *** tav has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T12:08:44  <creiht> nginx is cool
2007-02-24T12:08:45  <__jt__> I fear my expectations for this talk were too high.
2007-02-24T12:08:49  <benbangert> mod_python isn't a scaling solution....
2007-02-24T12:08:57  <benbangert> unless you enjoy heavy apache processes
2007-02-24T12:08:58  * grover2 bets memcached is 0.4
2007-02-24T12:09:27  <yello> some of us with really high load sites need to get of our collective behinds and give these talks sometime.
2007-02-24T12:09:35  <creiht> haha
2007-02-24T12:09:36  <gps> i expected more but actually these are the practical things -most- average people with sites will face
2007-02-24T12:09:46  <creiht> gps: very true
2007-02-24T12:10:06  <__jt__> yeah, but anyone with this problem has already done all of this. what *now*
2007-02-24T12:10:18  <gps> yeah thats what i'd assume
2007-02-24T12:10:31  *** dstanek has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T12:10:50  <__jt__> *mutters something about ajp*
2007-02-24T12:11:27  <yello> hmm... should we do a BOF of "my site is too slow.  I've done a bunch of stuff already.  What now?"
2007-02-24T12:11:28  <creiht> heh... I bet they are not even going to get to memcached
2007-02-24T12:11:30  <grover2> I win!
2007-02-24T12:11:32  * pfein wins a dollar!
2007-02-24T12:11:35  <__jt__> we all win.
2007-02-24T12:11:38  <creiht> doh
2007-02-24T12:11:39  <creiht> hehe
2007-02-24T12:11:46  <creiht> don't use memcached for static files!
2007-02-24T12:11:55  <creiht> Use squid
2007-02-24T12:11:56  <__jt__> yello: definitely
2007-02-24T12:12:12  <grover2> creight, you should get up there
2007-02-24T12:12:17  <creiht> hehe
2007-02-24T12:12:30  <creiht> yello: I would be totally up for a performance BOF
2007-02-24T12:12:46  <creiht> yeah do either of those up there
2007-02-24T12:13:09  <creiht> use memcached to cache static versions of dynamic stuff
2007-02-24T12:13:12  <pfein> this all gets a big "duh" so far.
2007-02-24T12:13:19  <pfein> creiht: me too
2007-02-24T12:13:46  <__jt__> well, I guess that's why we only get to 0.4
2007-02-24T12:14:08  <creiht> So if they don't share session information, do they use "sticky sessions" so that a user doesn't jump from one cherrypy server to another?
2007-02-24T12:14:21  <grover2> lb based on ip?
2007-02-24T12:14:32  <yello> they share session info with nginx, I think.
2007-02-24T12:14:44  <pfein> yello, creiht: want to meet after talk to schedule BoF?
2007-02-24T12:14:51  <dstanek> session info is probably in memcached
2007-02-24T12:14:58  <__jt__> I think that is what 'pear' is for
2007-02-24T12:14:59  <dstanek> that way they can scale across boxes
2007-02-24T12:15:06  <pfein> dstanek: sessions is in http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/pear/0.8
2007-02-24T12:15:17  <grover2> lol
2007-02-24T12:15:17  <yello> yeah, if they have a question section, I'll put a shout out for a bof.
2007-02-24T12:15:18  <dstanek> sticky session make it harder to scale in many environments
2007-02-24T12:15:29  <creiht> dstanek: That would make sense, though not completely obvious from their talk
2007-02-24T12:15:29  <pfein> k
2007-02-24T12:15:39  <dstanek> +1 i'd like to be there
2007-02-24T12:15:52  <creiht> dstanek: One heavy user will kill one of your servers :)
2007-02-24T12:16:12  <dstanek> creiht: possibly yes, at work we have some ways to prevent that
2007-02-24T12:16:27  <creiht> We do to... we lock them out :)
2007-02-24T12:16:41  <creiht> And then they call us and ask... hey why is my account locked? :)
2007-02-24T12:17:04  <dstanek> i don't have that luxury because much of our service is free
2007-02-24T12:17:08  <maelztrom> That's when you get to remind them it's not *their* account :)
2007-02-24T12:17:23  <creiht> hehe... Ours is an internal app, so yeah that doesn't apply everywhere :)
2007-02-24T12:17:23  <pfein> oops
2007-02-24T12:17:51  <pfein> yeah, as long as doesn't conflict with the distributed computing BoF I'm there.
2007-02-24T12:17:53  <creiht> oh no not 130!
2007-02-24T12:17:58  <creiht> that's a lot !
2007-02-24T12:17:59  <creiht> :)
2007-02-24T12:18:01  <ErikRose> Is SQLAlchemy still good?
2007-02-24T12:18:51  <benbangert> ErikRose: of course
2007-02-24T12:18:55  *** PluckyBlade has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T12:18:58  *** gldnspud has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T12:19:01  *** PluckyBlade is now known as jng
2007-02-24T12:19:03  <ErikRose> Thanks; perhaps I'll join you.
2007-02-24T12:19:19  <creiht> What DB are they using?  With Postgres and only 130 rows it would do a sequential scan with or without an index
2007-02-24T12:19:21  <benbangert> It's down to questions now
2007-02-24T12:19:37  *** jgraves has quit IRC
2007-02-24T12:19:37  <grover2> creiht: I think they said 100k rows
2007-02-24T12:19:52  <creiht> ahh ok... then yeah that would make a difference
2007-02-24T12:19:53  <pfein> I'd be up for a "Running a lot of boxen" BoF too...
2007-02-24T12:19:59  <gldnspud> ug....         so was the food all devoured by the time they started packing up, or is the hotel staff militarized to the point where they waste it to keep the schedule rock solid?
2007-02-24T12:20:02  <pfein> admin is so annoying
2007-02-24T12:20:04  <tortoise> pfein: what was the scaling guys talk
2007-02-24T12:20:13  <pfein> why can't the boxes just run themselves?
2007-02-24T12:20:15  <ErikRose> pfein: Yeah, me too.
2007-02-24T12:20:17  <gldnspud> either way i am glad i drove so i could bring my own food
2007-02-24T12:20:17  <pfein> ;)
2007-02-24T12:20:25  <maelztrom> all the food was gone before I was out of the room for two minutes
2007-02-24T12:20:29  <ErikRose> How can I factor up admin of many Debians? They always want interaction during upgrades.
2007-02-24T12:20:39  <ErikRose> (for example)
2007-02-24T12:21:03  <dijix> gldnspud: where you live?
2007-02-24T12:21:31  <maelztrom> ErikRose: you mean something more than the -y  option to apt?
2007-02-24T12:21:33  <pfein> ErikRose: not to mention config management...
2007-02-24T12:21:34  <creiht> That's why you don't use memcachd to cache static files :)
2007-02-24T12:21:34  <gps> hehe friend sitting next to me said "this is pretty much exactly all the stuff our company did" to the scaling talk
2007-02-24T12:21:36  <gldnspud> dijix: southwest missouri, about a 7 hr drive from here
2007-02-24T12:21:43  <ErikRose> maelztrom: yup
2007-02-24T12:21:58  *** Tv has quit IRC
2007-02-24T12:22:19  <ErikRose> I do a lot Plone stuff, and Plone is really slow, and reverse-proxy caching is the state of the art.
2007-02-24T12:22:19  <maelztrom> there's always expect scripts...
2007-02-24T12:22:34  <tortoise> creiht: can you summarize the scaling talk
2007-02-24T12:22:47  <ErikRose> It's an awful lot of darn work, though, to decide what to cache.
2007-02-24T12:23:03  <matt_c> are there any slides up for the scaling talk?
2007-02-24T12:23:11  <ErikRose> CacheFu helps a lot, but the problem still requires thinking.
2007-02-24T12:23:16  <creiht> tortoise: CGi -> Python web server -> Load balanced Python web server -> Memcached to cache static content
2007-02-24T12:23:27  <dstanek> this sounds like the talk i did with Mike Pirnat last year
2007-02-24T12:23:45  <benbangert> ErikRose: of course, if your site requires dynamic interaction that can't be cached, that approach doesn't help
2007-02-24T12:23:51  <ErikRose> True.
2007-02-24T12:23:54  <pfein> for those who misse dthe scaling talk: these articles (about ruby) cover all of the same issues http://poocs.net/articles/2006/03/13/the-adventures-of-scaling-stage-1
2007-02-24T12:24:03  <tortoise> creiht: thanks!
2007-02-24T12:24:13  <ErikRose> Then I suppose you optimize your app or add more servers. Uninteresting solutions, unfortunately
2007-02-24T12:24:29  <benbangert> I'd generally assume for a Plone site, that a decent amount can be cached, as content-based apps are generally good cache candidates
2007-02-24T12:24:49  <benbangert> if you were writing something that was incredibly dynamic, I'd use something faster than Plone ;)
2007-02-24T12:24:52  <matt_c> pfein: ahh, every scaling talk sounds about the same then.
2007-02-24T12:24:55  <benbangert> But I may be biased....
2007-02-24T12:25:06  <ErikRose> That's probably true of most of our users (we set up Plone sites for people), but often we use Zope/Plone as a piece of framework for an interactive app.
2007-02-24T12:25:08  <creiht> haha
2007-02-24T12:25:19  <gps> yes plone is slow!
2007-02-24T12:25:22  <pfein> What I want to here about is the more complex stuff...
2007-02-24T12:25:30  <creiht> blech
2007-02-24T12:25:36  <gps> what is the pycon schedule page done in?
2007-02-24T12:25:39  <creiht> Use hardware for load balancing
2007-02-24T12:25:47  <creiht> Like CISCO, BigIP
2007-02-24T12:25:51  <creiht> if you really need it
2007-02-24T12:26:47  <wam_> schedule is django I believe
2007-02-24T12:26:50  *** tav_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T12:27:00  <pfein> the JS tootltip thing is really annoying.
2007-02-24T12:27:22  <ErikRose> pfein: Aye. In OmniWeb, the box goes away when I move the mouse; I can't click the links in it.
2007-02-24T12:27:24  *** DuncF has quit IRC
2007-02-24T12:27:25  <matt_c> We cache all of our content for 60 seconds or so for non-logged-in users which works great for us but doesn't work for everyone.  That and some perlbal + memcached and I'm a happy puppy.
2007-02-24T12:27:41  <wam_> well, the tooltip thing is kind of nice, I just which it pulled all the data down at once and not asynchnously.
2007-02-24T12:27:44  *** dand has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T12:28:08  <creiht> haha
2007-02-24T12:28:21  <pfein> wam_: I wish it'd stop disappearing when I moved my mouse...  It's good to want things tho.
2007-02-24T12:28:50  <gps> yeah the tooltip thing has ui issues
2007-02-24T12:28:51  <creiht> ok they got that right... use an SSL accelerator
2007-02-24T12:28:54  *** obfuskate has left #pycon
2007-02-24T12:29:07  *** nerd_alert has quit IRC
2007-02-24T12:29:17  *** msjohnso has quit IRC
2007-02-24T12:30:09  *** DuncF has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T12:30:48  *** ErikRose has quit IRC
2007-02-24T12:32:53  *** Six`oh`six has quit IRC
2007-02-24T12:33:34  *** Tv has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T12:33:35  *** dand has left #pycon
2007-02-24T12:33:55  <yello> pfein, you still want to meet?  Where u at?
2007-02-24T12:34:18  <benbangert> holy crap its cold in here
2007-02-24T12:34:38  *** Veloso has quit IRC
2007-02-24T12:34:38  *** gldnspud has quit IRC
2007-02-24T12:35:05  <pfein> yello: meet by the boards in 5 min?
2007-02-24T12:35:13  <creiht> pfein: I'll be there too
2007-02-24T12:35:18  <pfein> k
2007-02-24T12:35:21  <pfein> battery dying
2007-02-24T12:35:24  *** creiht has quit IRC
2007-02-24T12:36:10  <yello> yup
2007-02-24T12:36:19  *** thatch has quit IRC
2007-02-24T12:37:47  *** ErikRose has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T12:38:00  *** gldnspud has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T12:39:10  *** dougn has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T12:39:18  <dougn> wow, there are people here.
2007-02-24T12:39:42  <wam_> Testing Panel I assume?
2007-02-24T12:39:53  <dijix> that's where I am
2007-02-24T12:39:56  <wam_> I'm here too, and it looks full...
2007-02-24T12:40:07  <wam_> a few spots open still, but still filling
2007-02-24T12:40:15  <dougn> yup
2007-02-24T12:40:26  <ecn> testing is the new hotness
2007-02-24T12:40:32  <dougn> FYI: there are new schedules for sat/sun at the reg desk
2007-02-24T12:40:52  <dijix> this should be a good one.. I like the panel concept this year.. it worked well for the web platforms. .and this (testing tools) is another area where there are many choices and people may not know what would work best for them
2007-02-24T12:40:55  <dougn> hot off the presses
2007-02-24T12:41:03  <wam_> testing was hot last year too
2007-02-24T12:41:25  <wam_> recycled joke
2007-02-24T12:41:36  <wam_> which was perhaps a joke itself.
2007-02-24T12:41:43  <ErikRose> Network's better today.
2007-02-24T12:41:43  <dougn> I am very glad that we got the panels going. Jeff and I were pushing for them last year, but we couldn't get it together.
2007-02-24T12:41:57  <dougn> We rolled out another 6 apps
2007-02-24T12:42:02  <dougn> well sean did
2007-02-24T12:42:15  *** cablehead has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T12:42:20  <gps> testing
2007-02-24T12:42:59  <dougn> wow.. this could be a dringking game. how many times are we going to hear the word 'test'
2007-02-24T12:43:04  <gps> pa system too loud
2007-02-24T12:43:11  *** thatch has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T12:43:17  <gps> we'll be on the floor in 30 more seconds if we drink
2007-02-24T12:44:15  <maelztrom> maybe reverse it?  Drink every time testing isn't used within 30 seconds of the start of a new minute?
2007-02-24T12:45:02  <dougn> next year the panels will be 1 hour long (if we can manage the schedule).
2007-02-24T12:45:27  <yello> in general, I find the sessions really short here.
2007-02-24T12:45:30  <Tv> We want 9 5's reliability.
2007-02-24T12:45:37  <ErikRose> lol
2007-02-24T12:45:51  <yello> lol
2007-02-24T12:46:07  *** tpollari_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T12:46:31  *** Six`oh`six has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T12:47:17  <dougn> I didn't hear you two...
2007-02-24T12:47:18  *** nerd_alert has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T12:47:38  <Tv> alright, I was just googling for Titus' tools
2007-02-24T12:47:47  <Tv> and typoed scotch as scrotch
2007-02-24T12:47:54  <dijix> Tv: that sounds dirty
2007-02-24T12:48:01  <Tv> yes
2007-02-24T12:48:05  <Tv> though I am not sure what it would mean
2007-02-24T12:48:15  <dijix> you tool-googler, you
2007-02-24T12:48:23  <yello> Trying to imagine it.  Having a hard time.
2007-02-24T12:50:22  *** yello is now known as jerryseutter
2007-02-24T12:53:04  *** pfein has quit IRC
2007-02-24T12:53:17  *** pfein has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T12:54:12  <pfein> Six`oh`six: what time did we say for the WebSiteWarStories BoF?  I wanna update http://us.pycon.org/TX2007/BoF
2007-02-24T12:54:31  <Six`oh`six> it was just after the django one...
2007-02-24T12:54:35  <Six`oh`six> 7:30
2007-02-24T12:54:49  <pfein> 'member which room
2007-02-24T12:54:51  <pfein> ?
2007-02-24T12:55:22  <pfein> eh, good 'enuf
2007-02-24T12:55:34  <Six`oh`six> same as the django room. but i can't recall.
2007-02-24T12:55:36  *** shawn has quit IRC
2007-02-24T12:56:01  <pfein> yeah, it's pwd-protected anyway...
2007-02-24T12:56:16  <dougn> please rememner to check the board before going to a BoF and check it often. things are getting moved around alot. Also please do not post signs out side the dors with things like 'Django BoF has beem moved to Ballroom A-E'
2007-02-24T12:56:30  <dougn> *remember
2007-02-24T12:56:54  <dougn> yea, we locked it to keep the board as the master. If you really need something changed, let me know. but we really dont want to do that.
2007-02-24T12:57:02  *** bryan_ is now known as bryan
2007-02-24T12:57:26  <jerryseutter> dougn: thanks for the heads-up.
2007-02-24T12:57:27  *** __jt__ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T12:57:29  *** tpollari has quit IRC
2007-02-24T12:57:31  <dougn> np
2007-02-24T12:58:23  <pfein> dougn: k, thx.
2007-02-24T12:59:39  *** sjzabel has quit IRC
2007-02-24T13:00:42  *** T1 has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T13:01:37  *** Tv has quit IRC
2007-02-24T13:02:12  *** tpollari_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T13:04:50  <pfein> I like smoke testing... if your app doesn't explode, you run around the room yelling "Fire! Fire!" and then ship it,
2007-02-24T13:05:35  *** retracile has quit IRC
2007-02-24T13:05:50  <dijix> Delivery-Date Testing: if it's due, it passes
2007-02-24T13:06:14  <jerryseutter> I'm a firm proponent of Works Once testing.  If it worked once, ship it!
2007-02-24T13:06:29  <dijix> "It worked on *my* mchine.."
2007-02-24T13:07:15  <ErikRose> No TRUE Scotsman puts testing in his porridge.
2007-02-24T13:07:46  <gps> qa != testing  TI dude
2007-02-24T13:08:20  <pfein> dijix: My rule about that is: "Unless you're willing to go sit in the datacenter, I don't care if it works on your laptop"
2007-02-24T13:08:37  <gps> if it gets to all the way to qa before bugs are found you've got a problem
2007-02-24T13:09:44  <tortoise> the testosterone guy is hillarious
2007-02-24T13:09:54  <pfein> how is functional testing different from unit testing, exactly?
2007-02-24T13:10:00  <wam_> he gave a great lightening talk last year...
2007-02-24T13:10:07  <wam_> was vid...
2007-02-24T13:10:10  <Six`oh`six> we do high level testing. manually. for hours at a time. and it's really really boring.
2007-02-24T13:10:10  <gps> DOTS
2007-02-24T13:10:22  <dougn> unit testing will test the ..
2007-02-24T13:10:25  <dougn> err.. there you go.
2007-02-24T13:10:32  <jerryseutter> And we're hiring! :P
2007-02-24T13:10:35  <dougn> unit tests a unit of code. I.e. interfaces on a class.
2007-02-24T13:10:42  <dougn> who isn't hiring?
2007-02-24T13:10:49  <ErikRose> I love and hate that feature.
2007-02-24T13:10:49  <gps> someone yesterday wasn't
2007-02-24T13:10:51  <Six`oh`six> o/
2007-02-24T13:10:58  <rmunn> Hey... does anyone have any Dots candy?
2007-02-24T13:10:59  <jerryseutter> \o
2007-02-24T13:11:00  <rmunn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dots_(candy)
2007-02-24T13:11:02  <gps> often your api is your unit
2007-02-24T13:11:04  <dougn> Tummy.com wasn't
2007-02-24T13:11:08  <gps> haha that'd be funny rmunn
2007-02-24T13:11:11  <gps> hand him some
2007-02-24T13:11:14  <rmunn> It'd be hilarious if someone ran up and handed a box of that to Chad Whitacre...
2007-02-24T13:11:17  <pfein> dougn: and functional?
2007-02-24T13:11:24  *** bryan has quit IRC
2007-02-24T13:11:40  *** bryan_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T13:11:51  <dougn> functional is high(er) level testing which hits multiple classes/objects and tests their interaction
2007-02-24T13:12:12  * jerryseutter slaps Six`oh`six with a dead fish.
2007-02-24T13:12:56  <dougn> yikes.
2007-02-24T13:13:25  <gps> yay tdd
2007-02-24T13:13:28  <Six`oh`six> true dat. test driven makes you code better. period.
2007-02-24T13:13:56  <gps> mostly just gets you thinking about your edge cases and such earlier on
2007-02-24T13:14:31  <Six`oh`six> yeah, but also delineating your classes. if you can't test your class/module you probably did it in a really ugly way.
2007-02-24T13:14:56  <rmunn> OK, now I *want* to hand him some Dots candy.
2007-02-24T13:15:06  <gps> smoked dots
2007-02-24T13:15:24  <benbangert> all this talk of dots reminds me of some WoW terms...
2007-02-24T13:15:38  <gps> sdd
2007-02-24T13:15:43  <rmunn> benbangert: :-D
2007-02-24T13:16:39  <Six`oh`six> "make your code not break. this is important."
2007-02-24T13:16:44  <dougn> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=candy+store+addison+TX&ie=UTF8&z=13&om=1
2007-02-24T13:16:53  <gps> haha
2007-02-24T13:17:14  <jerryseutter> heh
2007-02-24T13:17:22  <gps> theres a kmart down beltline that i bet sells dots
2007-02-24T13:17:52  <dougn> Learned long ago that exhaustive unit testing is a waste of effort on a very large project. You need a balance, and when you find a bug. it is actually two bugs. 1 in the code and 2 in the tests.
2007-02-24T13:17:56  <rmunn> If only I had a car...
2007-02-24T13:18:00  <rmunn> Maybe tomorrow.
2007-02-24T13:18:21  <wam_> not having any standards makes it hard for me to not live up to them - Titus
2007-02-24T13:18:38  <Six`oh`six> i find that test first works better on a large project. when you have a big project just throwing tests at it you can't guarantee coverage very easily.
2007-02-24T13:18:57  <Six`oh`six> unless you build them with the big project
2007-02-24T13:18:57  <gps> with lots of people on project lasting a long time having the automated test in place catches a lot of random issues when someone new changes something without being aware of issues their change could cause in a sadly complex system
2007-02-24T13:19:09  <Six`oh`six> definitely
2007-02-24T13:19:10  <rmunn> I find I can't write the tests first, because I don't know what my code interface is going to look like.
2007-02-24T13:19:21  <rmunn> After I've written the code, I know what it should do,, so I can write the tests.
2007-02-24T13:19:32  <rmunn> But I do exploratory programming -- I don't know where I'm going until I get there.
2007-02-24T13:19:41  <gps> quite often i'm the same
2007-02-24T13:19:49  <Six`oh`six> i find that when i run into that it usually means i haven't cut up my modules small enough.
2007-02-24T13:20:04  <Six`oh`six> but usually i have some business goal or feature i need to implement, so that's different.
2007-02-24T13:20:09  <pfein> rmunn: I'm with you.
2007-02-24T13:20:11  <dijix> rmunn: same here
2007-02-24T13:20:11  <rmunn> I can't do it even on a tiny little class.
2007-02-24T13:20:12  <dougn> Check out the Python Lab problems. (have new ones from Wesley Chun which will be up later) I wrote the doctest strings first (for the most part) and they helped me design the interface
2007-02-24T13:22:36  <gps> its ironic to write doctest "cut-n-paste from an interactive session after you've written the code" test format in that way ;)
2007-02-24T13:23:35  <dougn> oddly, it really was't that hard
2007-02-24T13:23:51  <gps> yeah its not.  i just like the irony
2007-02-24T13:23:51  <Six`oh`six> gps: that works well for your users. better than documentation that lies.
2007-02-24T13:23:56  *** DuncF has quit IRC
2007-02-24T13:24:02  <gps> yes Siz!
2007-02-24T13:24:04  <gps> x
2007-02-24T13:24:05  *** greenfngrs has quit IRC
2007-02-24T13:24:20  <gps> i love documentation by example
2007-02-24T13:24:25  <gps> i learn that way
2007-02-24T13:24:27  <dougn> >>> bits2string(string2bits('DAD')) == 'DAD'
2007-02-24T13:24:27  <dougn> True
2007-02-24T13:24:37  *** _chris_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T13:24:39  <gps> python module reference was so much of how i learned python in 99
2007-02-24T13:24:43  <dougn> not really all that hard to write even w/o the code
2007-02-24T13:25:15  *** thatch has quit IRC
2007-02-24T13:25:15  <Six`oh`six> no love for zope
2007-02-24T13:25:29  *** coderanger_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T13:25:42  <gps> haha
2007-02-24T13:25:57  <dougn> poor poor zope. always the brides maid
2007-02-24T13:26:01  *** coderanger__ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T13:26:03  *** coderanger__ is now known as coderanger_
2007-02-24T13:26:09  <gps> at least its sexy looking ;)
2007-02-24T13:26:39  <Six`oh`six> i like stdlib unittest
2007-02-24T13:26:49  <Six`oh`six> don't know why these guys are so picky
2007-02-24T13:27:06  <dstanek> Six`oh`six: i don't like all of the typing that it makes you do
2007-02-24T13:27:28  *** Six`oh`six has quit IRC
2007-02-24T13:27:30  <dougn> we need dots
2007-02-24T13:27:42  <gps> i was happy to see stdlib unittest happen because it was nearly identical to what we wrote ourselves at our company before it was in stdlib
2007-02-24T13:27:48  *** ErikRose has quit IRC
2007-02-24T13:27:48  *** nerd_alert has quit IRC
2007-02-24T13:27:50  *** pobrien has quit IRC
2007-02-24T13:28:01  *** cablehead has quit IRC
2007-02-24T13:31:05  *** gldnspud has quit IRC
2007-02-24T13:31:57  *** dijix2 has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T13:32:22  <dijix2> standing in lunch line..
2007-02-24T13:33:37  *** T1 has quit IRC
2007-02-24T13:33:59  *** Tv has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T13:34:12  *** jgraves has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T13:35:14  *** Veloso has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T13:37:06  *** ianbicking has quit IRC
2007-02-24T13:37:59  *** dijix2 has quit IRC
2007-02-24T13:38:36  *** sjzabel has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T13:38:52  <rmunn> Guido's starting.
2007-02-24T13:38:58  *** DuncF has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T13:39:18  <rmunn> No it won't be.
2007-02-24T13:39:22  <rmunn> Can't beat this morning for boring.
2007-02-24T13:39:26  <Tv> oh it very well might be
2007-02-24T13:39:38  <dijix> true
2007-02-24T13:39:44  <Tv> you didn't have to gnaw your way out of his "what character should we use for decorators" keynote
2007-02-24T13:39:53  *** ErikRose has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T13:39:57  <rmunn> ... Ah.
2007-02-24T13:39:59  *** __jt__ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T13:39:59  *** DuncF has quit IRC
2007-02-24T13:40:32  *** DuncF has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T13:40:34  <dijix> back when he was a young dictator
2007-02-24T13:40:54  *** _moshez has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T13:41:04  * _moshez froops
2007-02-24T13:41:49  *** __jt___ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T13:41:58  *** jng has quit IRC
2007-02-24T13:42:36  *** __jt__ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T13:43:25  *** __jt___ is now known as __jt__
2007-02-24T13:44:06  *** shawn has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T13:45:03  *** shawn_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T13:45:17  <dougn> embrace extend extinguish
2007-02-24T13:45:23  <dougn> oops, wrong window
2007-02-24T13:45:31  <_moshez> don't extinguish :(
2007-02-24T13:45:46  <dougn> http://www.whenpenguinsattack.com/2007/02/24/microsoft-interested-in-ruby/
2007-02-24T13:46:57  <tortoise> scheme
2007-02-24T13:48:43  *** retracile has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T13:49:19  *** thatch has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T13:50:00  *** jerryseutter has quit IRC
2007-02-24T13:50:52  <dougn> am I the only other one who likes print as a function? It would seem so...
2007-02-24T13:51:15  * ErikRose loves it
2007-02-24T13:51:31  * ErikRose wants raise as a funciton too.
2007-02-24T13:51:54  <dijix> I would like that, too
2007-02-24T13:52:06  * rmunn nods at ErikRose
2007-02-24T13:52:06  <Tv> more typing :(
2007-02-24T13:52:09  <ErikRose> Which, raise? I thought I was the only one!
2007-02-24T13:52:17  * ErikRose is happy
2007-02-24T13:52:28  <dijix> ErikRose: I've not thought about it too much, but it seems like a good enough idea
2007-02-24T13:52:36  <rmunn> It would be rather useful, I think.
2007-02-24T13:52:40  <rmunn> yeah, raise
2007-02-24T13:52:42  <dougn> yes! raise as function!
2007-02-24T13:52:44  <ErikRose> ditto, and I've run into at least 1 situation where it woulda been handy
2007-02-24T13:52:56  <rmunn> Let me guess... inside a lambda?
2007-02-24T13:53:01  <ErikRose> No, actually
2007-02-24T13:53:17  <ErikRose> I don't remember the specifics, but I just wanted to pass a triple in, a la raise(*triple)
2007-02-24T13:54:22  <rmunn> Hmmm, dict views. Lots of dict-like objects are going to need to rewrite their .keys(), .values(), and .items() functions...
2007-02-24T13:54:53  <ErikRose> Yeah. I'm reticent.
2007-02-24T13:55:22  *** four0four has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T13:55:33  <rmunn> I like the concept of making .keys(), etc. return an iterable object by default.
2007-02-24T13:56:22  <rmunn> But if a plain list doesn't support what a dict view can do, then all the code that does "def keys(): return [item for item in my_stuff]" is going to break.
2007-02-24T13:56:57  <ErikRose> Maybe you can replace it with return (item for item in my_stuff).
2007-02-24T13:57:09  <rmunn> But .keys() has set semantics.
2007-02-24T13:57:09  <dijix> rmunn: couldn't that be just changed to (item for item in my_stuff)
2007-02-24T13:57:20  <rmunn> Iterators won't, I don't think.
2007-02-24T13:57:24  <ErikRose> grr
2007-02-24T13:57:37  <dougn> that won't do 'x in foo.keys()'
2007-02-24T13:57:47  <Veloso> That wouldn't work.  You're supposed to be able to iterate over a view more than once.
2007-02-24T13:58:00  <dougn> that too
2007-02-24T13:58:13  *** gldnspud has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T13:58:16  *** nerd_alert has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T13:58:16  <rmunn> Now, I rather like set semantics, because "x in foo.keys()" will be O(1). But it does mean code breakage.
2007-02-24T13:58:48  <gtalvola> "x in foo" works just as well
2007-02-24T13:58:58  <rmunn> "x in foo.values()" then.
2007-02-24T13:59:10  <gtalvola> that won't be O(1) though.
2007-02-24T13:59:17  <rmunn> Although wait, .values() shouldn't have set semantics.
2007-02-24T13:59:44  <dijix> rmunn: nope.. would lose duplicate values
2007-02-24T13:59:45  <rmunn> Set lookup isn't O(1)?
2007-02-24T14:00:06  <rmunn> I'm pretty sure it is.
2007-02-24T14:00:07  <dougn> values() wont return a set
2007-02-24T14:00:16  <dougn> values can have repeats
2007-02-24T14:00:26  <dijix> exactly
2007-02-24T14:00:35  <rmunn> Right.
2007-02-24T14:00:41  <dstanek> values will have collection semantics
2007-02-24T14:00:51  *** matt_good has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T14:00:58  *** _chris_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T14:01:15  <dougn> nympy has an ordered_list to get it to log(n)
2007-02-24T14:01:15  <Veloso> I hope he's wrong
2007-02-24T14:01:35  <rmunn> The slide said ".keys() and .values() will have set semantics", I guess he rushed preparing that slide and missed the error.
2007-02-24T14:01:36  <Tv> rmunn: set lookup can't really be O(1)
2007-02-24T14:01:41  <dougn> currently x in dict.values() is order N
2007-02-24T14:01:44  <Tv> rmunn: O(log n) or something
2007-02-24T14:01:47  <Veloso> That the obvious way to concatenate a sequence of string is highly inefficient, is a huge huge wart.
2007-02-24T14:01:56  <dougn> set lookup is hashed which is O(1)
2007-02-24T14:02:04  *** _moshez has quit IRC
2007-02-24T14:02:04  <Tv> hashed ain't O(1)
2007-02-24T14:02:05  <dougn> in theory
2007-02-24T14:02:11  *** __moshez has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T14:02:15  <dougn> true
2007-02-24T14:02:16  <Tv> in practise ;)
2007-02-24T14:02:17  *** sjzabel has quit IRC
2007-02-24T14:02:25  <__moshez> Tv: FROOP squish
2007-02-24T14:02:27  <__moshez> where are you
2007-02-24T14:02:36  <Tv> it might be O(1) if you had a perfect hash function
2007-02-24T14:02:41  <rmunn> I want to live in Theory. *everything* works in Theory.
2007-02-24T14:02:45  <Tv> perfect hash functions don't really exist for volatile data
2007-02-24T14:02:56  <Tv> rmunn: living in Theory works in theory
2007-02-24T14:03:04  <Tv> in practise, you're stuck with practise
2007-02-24T14:03:06  <dijix> except in practice
2007-02-24T14:03:12  <__moshez> Tv: squishing works in practice though
2007-02-24T14:03:17  <__moshez> yaaay for squishes
2007-02-24T14:03:22  <Tv> __moshez: squishing improves with practice
2007-02-24T14:03:23  <rmunn> "In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, though..."
2007-02-24T14:03:30  <dijix> I'm only a theoretical squisher
2007-02-24T14:03:51  <__moshez> Tv: it does indeed
2007-02-24T14:03:59  <__moshez> dijix: you should squish more thouh
2007-02-24T14:05:21  <gtalvola> what's the rationale for bytes being mutable, but strings not?
2007-02-24T14:05:22  <dijix> moshez: that's what the voices keep telling me...
2007-02-24T14:05:37  <rmunn> The bytes type is mutable -- and people writing C interface modules such as ctypes just cheered silently, I bet.
2007-02-24T14:05:40  <__moshez> why are you calling me "voices"
2007-02-24T14:05:47  <rmunn> Strings need to be useable as dict keys.
2007-02-24T14:06:04  <dougn> and swiged interfaces for 3000 will be MUCH easier!
2007-02-24T14:06:12  <gtalvola> do we need "frozenbytes" then :-)
2007-02-24T14:06:24  <rmunn> It's called bytes.encode() -> str
2007-02-24T14:06:51  <matt_good> rmunn: only if it's encoded text, that won't work for actual binary
2007-02-24T14:06:59  <Veloso> What exactly does bytes.encode() return?  Interpreting the bytes as UTF-8?
2007-02-24T14:07:13  <rmunn> Same as unicode.encode(), I'd guess.
2007-02-24T14:07:19  <rmunn> Interpret as whatever encoding you specify.
2007-02-24T14:07:23  <Veloso> Ah
2007-02-24T14:07:56  <gtalvola> what if I want to use bytes as a dict key?  Just be careful not to mutate after adding to the dict?
2007-02-24T14:08:02  <dijix> __moshez: not you... you're not the only squish advocate..
2007-02-24T14:08:45  *** shawn has quit IRC
2007-02-24T14:08:52  <__moshez> for serious?
2007-02-24T14:08:54  <__moshez> who else
2007-02-24T14:08:58  <rmunn> gtalvola: unless dicts change massively, and I don't think they will, you simply cannot use a mutable type as a dict key at all.
2007-02-24T14:09:14  <rmunn> So maybe frozenbytes is needed.
2007-02-24T14:09:16  <dijix> __moshez: just kidding - you're the only one
2007-02-24T14:09:21  <__moshez> yaaay awesome
2007-02-24T14:09:28  <__moshez> hahaha I will squish the entire universe
2007-02-24T14:09:37  <__moshez> it will be like the big bang
2007-02-24T14:09:38  <dijix> Emperor of Squishiland
2007-02-24T14:09:40  <__moshez> except in reverse
2007-02-24T14:09:43  <rmunn> But I think tuple(my_bytes_obj) will work for what you'd need.
2007-02-24T14:10:03  <ErikRose> "Always" a float, eh?
2007-02-24T14:10:18  <benbangert> Except when it isn't, yea
2007-02-24T14:10:23  * dijix ponders the Big Squish
2007-02-24T14:10:26  <ErikRose> People are going to be stupid and forget, but I guess fail-hard-fail-early applies.
2007-02-24T14:10:32  <ErikRose> Okay, I like this.
2007-02-24T14:11:01  <wam_> wonder what will happen if you // two floats
2007-02-24T14:11:17  <ErikRose> Probably a ValueError or TypeError
2007-02-24T14:11:20  <__moshez> hopefully int(x/y)
2007-02-24T14:11:20  <rmunn> It'll make teaching Python to kids *so* much easier, too.
2007-02-24T14:11:34  <rmunn> Kids expect to write 7/2 and get 3.5.
2007-02-24T14:11:44  <gtalvola> What does tuple(bytes) give you?  A tuple of bytes objects of length 1?  Isn't that still mutable then?
2007-02-24T14:11:44  <dougn> x//y ==> int division
2007-02-24T14:11:48  <dougn> x//y div
2007-02-24T14:11:50  *** mwh has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T14:11:54  <dougn> x%y mod
2007-02-24T14:11:57  <__moshez> mwh: frooop
2007-02-24T14:12:25  <Veloso> gtalvola: bytes[n] returns an int, so presumably a tuple of ints
2007-02-24T14:12:25  <rmunn> gtalvola: the tuple object itself isn't mutable. The mutability check, IIRC, doesn't go deeper than one level.
2007-02-24T14:12:30  <__moshez> variable v is deleted? :((
2007-02-24T14:12:38  <__moshez> man interactive usage will kinda sucl
2007-02-24T14:12:40  <__moshez> suck
2007-02-24T14:12:48  <__moshez> I like doing except Exception, v: pass
2007-02-24T14:12:52  <__moshez> and then reflect on v
2007-02-24T14:12:55  <rmunn> Nope, I'm wrong.
2007-02-24T14:13:02  <ErikRose> Well, my trouble with raise not being a function just largely went away.;
2007-02-24T14:13:03  <rmunn> >>> t = ([1],[2],[3])
2007-02-24T14:13:03  <rmunn> >>> d = {t: True}
2007-02-24T14:13:03  <rmunn> Traceback (most recent call last):
2007-02-24T14:13:04  <rmunn>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
2007-02-24T14:13:04  <rmunn> TypeError: list objects are unhashable
2007-02-24T14:13:09  <dstanek> i didn't catch the point he just made about exceptions - he said to start using some notation now - what was he referring to?
2007-02-24T14:13:10  <benbangert> That's good, its kind of annoying that those block vars persist past the block
2007-02-24T14:13:30  <benbangert> wonder if the var in, for var in list: will be gone at the end of the block
2007-02-24T14:13:37  <__moshez> I hope not :(
2007-02-24T14:13:40  <__moshez> I like them!
2007-02-24T14:13:40  *** Catspaw has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T14:13:41  <Veloso> I had hoped so, but they said no
2007-02-24T14:13:47  <Catspaw> ah ha.  here's where everyone is hiding.
2007-02-24T14:13:51  <Veloso> But there WAS serious talk about with block variables being deleted, too
2007-02-24T14:13:53  <wam_> must raise E(arg) instead of raise E, arg
2007-02-24T14:13:53  <wam_>     can still raise E (with no args)
2007-02-24T14:14:01  <thatch> dstanek: he was saying to use raise Exc("Bah!") rather than raise Exc, "Bah!"
2007-02-24T14:14:09  <ErikRose> dstanek: say raise E(arg), not raise E, arg.
2007-02-24T14:14:10  <dstanek> thatch: ah thx
2007-02-24T14:14:15  <__moshez> which everyone does anyway
2007-02-24T14:14:19  <wam_> that pasted snippet was for dstanek
2007-02-24T14:14:22  <__moshez> nobdoy uses the ancient raise syntax
2007-02-24T14:14:26  *** amk_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T14:14:32  <Catspaw> hey amk_.
2007-02-24T14:14:35  <thatch> dstanek: wam_ answered sooner but I already had it typed...
2007-02-24T14:14:45  <amk_> hey.
2007-02-24T14:15:08  <__moshez> heh can't wait to see nevow formless
2007-02-24T14:15:10  <__moshez> with the auto-annotator
2007-02-24T14:15:24  <thatch> __moshez: actually I did for the first few weeks of using Python, same for using old-style classes.  It took me a while to find info on the "right way" since Dive Into Python et al. didn't cover that.
2007-02-24T14:15:43  <dstanek> what is the svn path to py3k?
2007-02-24T14:15:45  <__moshez> dive into python is crap :(
2007-02-24T14:15:56  <Catspaw> ouch, harsh to mark pilgrim.
2007-02-24T14:16:13  <__moshez> well, it's crap, I'm sorry :(
2007-02-24T14:16:18  <__moshez> and so many people use it
2007-02-24T14:16:22  <__moshez> :(
2007-02-24T14:16:23  <Catspaw> have you written a better one? ;)
2007-02-24T14:16:36  <__moshez> I like the tutorial on docs.python.org
2007-02-24T14:16:38  <rmunn> Don't start from scratch, patch the existing one.
2007-02-24T14:16:39  <rmunn> :-)
2007-02-24T14:16:40  <__moshez> this is how I learned Python
2007-02-24T14:16:41  <thatch> __moshez: Although I don't agree with how he goes about testing and it's perhaps paced interestingly, I found it quite helpful!  I have not found a better book, much less online.
2007-02-24T14:16:54  * __moshez hugs the python tutorial
2007-02-24T14:17:11  <pfein> +1 annotations
2007-02-24T14:17:12  <rmunn> I've found that the Python tutorial is incomprehensible for people who haven't programmed before.
2007-02-24T14:17:20  <__moshez> well, yeah
2007-02-24T14:17:20  * Catspaw agrees with rmunn.
2007-02-24T14:17:24  <rmunn> It's great if you've got extensive experience in a different language, though.
2007-02-24T14:17:31  <rmunn> But it's not truly aimed at complete newbies.
2007-02-24T14:17:31  <__moshez> for people who haven't programming, thinkcspy is the right solution
2007-02-24T14:17:36  <dijix> well, of course, it's not targeted towards the beginning python learner - Dive Into Python, that is..
2007-02-24T14:17:36  <__moshez> to which I've actually contributed :)
2007-02-24T14:17:50  * rmunn loves recommending thinkcspy to programming newbies
2007-02-24T14:17:55  <__moshez> yaaaay
2007-02-24T14:17:57  <dijix> me too!
2007-02-24T14:17:57  * __moshez hugs rmunn
2007-02-24T14:18:01  <__moshez> and dijix
2007-02-24T14:18:24  <__moshez> I am tired :(
2007-02-24T14:18:28  <__moshez> jatlag sucks
2007-02-24T14:18:39  <rmunn> Keyword-only parameters: the lone star is kind of weird.
2007-02-24T14:18:42  <benbangert> for some reason looking at that example hurts my head
2007-02-24T14:18:45  <rmunn> Although we *are* in the Lone Star State right now... :-)
2007-02-24T14:18:46  <__moshez> but it is cool
2007-02-24T14:18:50  <pfein> rmunn: yeah, neat idea, ugly syntax
2007-02-24T14:19:06  *** jgraves has quit IRC
2007-02-24T14:19:08  <benbangert> its too close to a *arg
2007-02-24T14:19:13  <__moshez> by design
2007-02-24T14:19:21  <__moshez> it's like *args, except it forces 0 args
2007-02-24T14:19:22  <wam_> benhangert: kind of the point
2007-02-24T14:19:54  <benbangert> wam_: yea, I'm just thinking it will make scanning code require more mental parsing
2007-02-24T14:20:02  <Veloso> This is nice.
2007-02-24T14:20:15  *** pgries has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T14:20:21  <Catspaw> hey pgries
2007-02-24T14:20:27  <dijix> I think I like that
2007-02-24T14:20:29  <pgries> howdy
2007-02-24T14:20:32  <__moshez> we should totally have started +1, -1 on features
2007-02-24T14:20:34  <rmunn> Set comps are going to look a lot like dict comps...
2007-02-24T14:20:38  <__moshez> and then submitted it to guido
2007-02-24T14:20:44  <__moshez> for instant community feedback
2007-02-24T14:20:45  <wam_> I like set comprehensions...
2007-02-24T14:20:45  <dougn> I was hoping for dict comprehensions. *suck*
2007-02-24T14:20:55  <rmunn> Wait, no dict comps at all?
2007-02-24T14:21:06  <rmunn> I'd rather have dict comps than set comps if it's an XOR.
2007-02-24T14:21:16  <__moshez> yay I totally should start absolute_import
2007-02-24T14:21:17  <dougn> { (x, y) for .... } => dict (but it looks like it will be a set of tuples instead)
2007-02-24T14:21:41  <dijix> kind of a {key: value for .....} ?
2007-02-24T14:21:51  <rmunn> dijix: yeah, that's the syntax I was thinking about
2007-02-24T14:22:19  <mwh> i guess i should prepare my lightning talk
2007-02-24T14:22:33  <mwh> my hangover is really starting to kick in now
2007-02-24T14:22:48  <__moshez> mwh: :(
2007-02-24T14:22:49  <dijix> mwh: were you part of the late-nighter?
2007-02-24T14:22:56  <mwh> dijix: yes
2007-02-24T14:22:57  <__moshez> man we should pull a late nighter tonight
2007-02-24T14:23:00  <__moshez> and drink a lot
2007-02-24T14:23:04  <__moshez> yaaay for drinking
2007-02-24T14:23:09  <wam_> mwh: your lightening talk is what?
2007-02-24T14:23:11  <__moshez> I have drunk waaaay too much this conference
2007-02-24T14:23:14  <ErikRose> There's always dict([(x,y) for ...]), of course.
2007-02-24T14:23:14  <mwh> then we went for breakfast at 3am for some reason...
2007-02-24T14:23:15  <__moshez> and I want to conitnue
2007-02-24T14:23:36  <__moshez> ok, dude, we get the import semantics
2007-02-24T14:23:37  <wam_> I've not yet drunk too much...
2007-02-24T14:23:37  <__moshez> maaaaaan
2007-02-24T14:23:38  <__moshez> move on
2007-02-24T14:23:38  <dougn> ErikRose: yes, and there is always set(x for x in foo)
2007-02-24T14:23:40  <rmunn> Or even dict((x,y) for ...), using an iterator comp
2007-02-24T14:23:42  <wam_> and that has to change
2007-02-24T14:23:42  <mwh> wam_: pydoctor
2007-02-24T14:23:46  <ErikRose> dougn: tue
2007-02-24T14:23:47  <ErikRose> true
2007-02-24T14:23:51  <__moshez> pydoctor is all woo
2007-02-24T14:23:58  *** amk_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T14:24:09  <ErikRose> rmunn: Do you know, does dict() take adantage of the genexp there?
2007-02-24T14:24:12  <rmunn> Not sure everyone actually gets the import semantics... He's assuming little to no knowledge of the changes.
2007-02-24T14:24:26  <ecn> mmmm ... cookie
2007-02-24T14:24:26  <__moshez> thank god
2007-02-24T14:24:32  <dougn> dict( (x,y) for ... ) works
2007-02-24T14:24:33  <rmunn> ErikRose: I'm almost certain, let me check the docs
2007-02-24T14:24:46  <ErikRose> Just curious
2007-02-24T14:24:55  <ErikRose> I thought of that as I was typing but thought "naw"
2007-02-24T14:25:01  <dijix> dougn: true, that's how I usually do them
2007-02-24T14:25:06  <rmunn> Yes, http://docs.python.org/lib/built-in-funcs.html says dict() can take a generator
2007-02-24T14:25:07  *** rzoz has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T14:25:56  <Catspaw> Not sure how I feel about the string formatting syntax.
2007-02-24T14:26:18  <rmunn> I'm liking what I see.
2007-02-24T14:26:20  <ErikRose> rmunn: Rock on. ;-)
2007-02-24T14:26:22  <ErikRose> :-D, rather
2007-02-24T14:26:40  <__moshez> typiong .format(**vars()) --> kinda annoying?
2007-02-24T14:26:47  <four0four> I feel slightly disturbed , but not necessarily unhappy
2007-02-24T14:26:55  <rmunn> It's simple enough that there's going to be no need for a "simpler" syntax like the $foo syntax from PEP I-don't-remember-which
2007-02-24T14:27:05  <Catspaw> The thing that I find potentially awkward is that you have to explain indices to people before they can use it.
2007-02-24T14:27:08  <dougn> I like .format over %. it is more explicit.
2007-02-24T14:27:17  <Catspaw> so they'll get that "0 or 1" beginner's error
2007-02-24T14:27:21  <Catspaw> when using strings.
2007-02-24T14:27:34  <rmunn> Catspaw: Possible solution to that:
2007-02-24T14:27:56  <rmunn> "the {} {} {} jumped over the lazy dog".format("quick","red","fox")
2007-02-24T14:28:11  <Catspaw> true, but when they search for examples online
2007-02-24T14:28:15  <Catspaw> they'll find things that everyone else wrote
2007-02-24T14:28:17  <Catspaw> with {0}
2007-02-24T14:28:21  <rmunn> But that's implicit, and I don't know if Guido will like it.
2007-02-24T14:28:36  <pgries> That's an awful lot more syntax for a week 1 or 2 lecture.
2007-02-24T14:28:43  <rmunn> Catspaw: By the time they're searching for examples, they need to know about indices.
2007-02-24T14:29:00  <Catspaw> rmunn: not true at all.  why's that?
2007-02-24T14:29:03  <ErikRose> Hrrm, would backslashes have sufficed? Having 2 more (unusual) special chars makes me nervous.
2007-02-24T14:29:15  <wam_> I'm not a fan of {0:8} format syntax...
2007-02-24T14:29:23  <rmunn> Well, it's hard to work with lists without them.
2007-02-24T14:29:33  <Catspaw> of course not.  not if they iterate over it with "for"
2007-02-24T14:29:35  <rmunn> I can't really see a class not presenting lists pretty early.
2007-02-24T14:29:43  <__moshez> yay for nonlocal
2007-02-24T14:29:46  <Catspaw> the whole advantage of python for loops is you don't need to know indices right away
2007-02-24T14:29:52  <wam_> looks like you also lose zero padding. and possible precision on floating
2007-02-24T14:29:54  <pgries> And my students are going to have lots of trouble when we cover sets and dicts!
2007-02-24T14:30:01  <Veloso> Woot!
2007-02-24T14:30:04  <pfein> oh, this is good.
2007-02-24T14:30:07  <ErikRose> \0, \1, \fred. I guess not: "\cookies".format(cookie="monster")
2007-02-24T14:30:14  <dougn> gah! I don't want to think about the closure code on that!
2007-02-24T14:30:21  <__moshez> well, don't encourage people to use indices in format
2007-02-24T14:30:34  <Veloso> nonlocal is a good keyword, too
2007-02-24T14:30:38  <rmunn> wam_: I'm guessing there's more format possibilities he couldn't present on the slide.
2007-02-24T14:30:42  <__moshez> "{moshe} said ok".format(moshe="Erik") <== goodness
2007-02-24T14:30:45  <rmunn> If not, I'd be very surprised.
2007-02-24T14:30:49  <ErikRose> nonlocal is a step rightward.
2007-02-24T14:31:09  <rmunn> ErikRose: agreed.
2007-02-24T14:31:15  * pfein too
2007-02-24T14:31:15  <dougn> +1 nonlocal -10 having to cead the c code implementing it
2007-02-24T14:31:17  <rmunn> Makes writing closures much easier.
2007-02-24T14:31:21  <gtalvola> I've needed nonlocal quite a few times
2007-02-24T14:31:23  <ErikRose> +1 closures!
2007-02-24T14:31:24  *** _matt_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T14:31:30  <ErikRose> I needed is 2 days ago!
2007-02-24T14:31:31  <__moshez> the C code implementing it is trivial
2007-02-24T14:31:32  <ErikRose> it
2007-02-24T14:31:34  <pfein> yeah, I've hacked around this a few times & it's ugly.
2007-02-24T14:31:37  <__moshez> the only problem was the syntax
2007-02-24T14:31:44  <mwh> dougn: it won't be much worse than the rest of the compiler...
2007-02-24T14:31:52  <pfein> it's more a parser issue IIRC
2007-02-24T14:32:00  <ErikRose> We'll rejoice about nonlocal at the Lisp/Python bof.
2007-02-24T14:32:21  <rmunn> ErikRose: What I want is macros!
2007-02-24T14:32:29  <__moshez> whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat
2007-02-24T14:32:32  <__moshez> duck typing, man
2007-02-24T14:32:32  <ErikRose> rmunn: There was something. Logix or something. Seen it?
2007-02-24T14:32:34  <__moshez> duck typing
2007-02-24T14:32:39  <rmunn> Reading Lisp code still hurts my brain, but I really like macros.
2007-02-24T14:32:39  <__moshez> I am going to kill guido
2007-02-24T14:32:41  <__moshez> in a nice way
2007-02-24T14:32:46  <rmunn> ErikRose: Yeah, I really liked it. Shame it's dead.
2007-02-24T14:32:50  <alect> erikrose: http://swapoff.org/files/pythondoc.tar.bz2 <- the start of the doc plugin
2007-02-24T14:32:52  <ErikRose> rmunn: Aww!
2007-02-24T14:32:59  <__moshez> mwh: help me out
2007-02-24T14:33:02  <ErikRose> alect: Thanks! I was going to ask you for that.
2007-02-24T14:33:08  <__moshez> why is implements() bad :(
2007-02-24T14:33:17  <__moshez> mwh: we should poke guido's tummy
2007-02-24T14:33:24  <dijix> bad idea, I'm sure, but just thinking crazy thoughts here...  how about a system where each block has a new scope, nesting as deeply as you like, and your nonlocal can take some argument that indicates how many scopes back you want it to be tied to...   yes, crazy thoughts, I know..
2007-02-24T14:33:24  <ErikRose> Hoo-hoo!
2007-02-24T14:33:26  <mwh> __moshez: project 315?
2007-02-24T14:33:31  <__moshez> we will be all "noooooo we poke your tummy until you remember your ducks"
2007-02-24T14:33:35  <__moshez> mwh: YES
2007-02-24T14:33:44  <__moshez> EVIL WOO
2007-02-24T14:33:45  <Catspaw> quack.
2007-02-24T14:33:58  <Veloso> See, in theory I don't like this
2007-02-24T14:34:12  <Veloso> But the exact case GvR is talking about here is compelling
2007-02-24T14:34:17  <rmunn> ErikRose: the SVN hasn't been reachable in over a year, unless I'm looking in the wrong place.
2007-02-24T14:34:29  <rmunn> ErikRose: Although maybe at the Lisp/Python BoF we can talk about possibly forking it.
2007-02-24T14:34:37  <rmunn> I mean Logix
2007-02-24T14:34:39  <ErikRose> rmunn: Sounds fun. ;-)
2007-02-24T14:35:13  <__moshez> we should totally push implements() into the language
2007-02-24T14:36:01  <rmunn> __moshez: get a group walking up to Guido acting like ducks.
2007-02-24T14:36:04  <ErikRose> Yeah, I like this abstract base class thang. Sequence vs. mapping is really a semantics thing which needs an explicit statement of intention.
2007-02-24T14:36:07  <rmunn> Crouch, flap arms, quack...
2007-02-24T14:36:15  <__moshez> or we can kill him
2007-02-24T14:36:18  <__moshez> and hide the body
2007-02-24T14:36:23  <rmunn> Get a clip onto the "Videos of an entertaining nature".
2007-02-24T14:36:29  <Catspaw> rmunn: taste good on pancakes ....
2007-02-24T14:36:29  <rmunn> Oh, he does remember duck typing. :-)
2007-02-24T14:36:31  <dijix> a squishy duck conga line
2007-02-24T14:36:41  <Veloso> ErikRose: Absolutely right.
2007-02-24T14:36:55  <__moshez> I suddenly get the dash line about saving christmas from santa
2007-02-24T14:37:30  *** Catspaw is now known as Catspaw_pycon
2007-02-24T14:37:39  <__moshez> noooo the devil is in the isinstance
2007-02-24T14:37:41  <Tv> I don't like the base sequence type..
2007-02-24T14:37:42  <Tv> becuasre
2007-02-24T14:37:44  <Tv> because
2007-02-24T14:37:49  <__moshez> Tv: nobody likes it
2007-02-24T14:37:55  <Tv> you often have things that want some of the quacking involved with sequence
2007-02-24T14:37:56  <__moshez> Tv: hence the killingness of the guido
2007-02-24T14:38:03  <four0four> aaaaaaah!
2007-02-24T14:38:05  <Tv> if you *check*, you need all of the quackings
2007-02-24T14:38:11  <four0four> not swtich statements , nooooooooooooooooooooo
2007-02-24T14:38:43  <ErikRose> A coworker ruined me for 2-space indents.
2007-02-24T14:39:04  <ErikRose> I used to be a 2 guy.
2007-02-24T14:39:11  <rmunn> ErikRose: I used to use 2-space about fifteen years ago. I like 4 much better now.
2007-02-24T14:39:15  <__moshez> I was always a 4 guy
2007-02-24T14:39:17  <__moshez> harcdore
2007-02-24T14:39:21  <Veloso> Last place I worked used 3 as some sort of oddball compromise
2007-02-24T14:39:23  <ErikRose> I am still a tab guy, because BBEdit has no treat-it-like-a-tab option. :-)
2007-02-24T14:39:25  <benbangert> for some reason ruby is tolerable at 2 spaces, but Python is much nicer to read at 4 spaces
2007-02-24T14:39:25  <alect> next it'll be do/while
2007-02-24T14:39:26  <rmunn> Large enough that you can see the indent.
2007-02-24T14:39:34  <pfein> if you like 2 space idents, you should buy a laptop with a wider screen.
2007-02-24T14:39:40  *** cbcunc has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T14:39:42  <rmunn> 8 ends up making it hard to indent more than two or three levels before you hit 80.
2007-02-24T14:39:46  * __moshez hugs his screen
2007-02-24T14:39:53  <ErikRose> Well, in Ruby, you have "begin", which itself gets indented (or does it?), making the total 4.
2007-02-24T14:40:08  *** philiKON has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T14:40:15  <benbangert> ErikRose: no being if its a if/while/loop block
2007-02-24T14:40:17  <ErikRose> What is people's obsession with 80? It's 2007.
2007-02-24T14:40:19  <benbangert> err, no begin
2007-02-24T14:40:25  <ErikRose> benbangert: Ah.
2007-02-24T14:40:38  <pgries> I like 80 so that I can see two columns of code at once...
2007-02-24T14:40:40  <ErikRose> Thank god for no constants.
2007-02-24T14:40:48  <pgries> I rely on it, in fact, for my setup.
2007-02-24T14:40:49  <four0four> ErikRose, and ssh is still in widespread use...
2007-02-24T14:40:59  <ErikRose> I used all caps for consts for awhile, and then I realized it was pointless.
2007-02-24T14:41:04  *** MarkB1 has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T14:41:07  <__moshez> man I am so tired
2007-02-24T14:41:14  <ErikRose> ssh doesn't limit it to 80, though.
2007-02-24T14:41:16  *** dydimustk has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T14:41:17  <wam_> ErikRose: it's 2007, but my xterm still gives me a 80 character display by default. :-)
2007-02-24T14:41:28  <ErikRose> Fix your xterm defaults. ;-)
2007-02-24T14:41:29  <pfein> Pycon thanks the Mariott for the Army of Crashing Things during the keynote.
2007-02-24T14:41:32  <Tv> wam_: get a tiling window manager ;)
2007-02-24T14:41:37  <ErikRose> pfein: I hear ya! hehe
2007-02-24T14:41:42  <four0four> default terminal size tends to be
2007-02-24T14:41:48  <wam_> hehe the smiley was there to point to the jest of the statement
2007-02-24T14:41:49  <ErikRose> That's a ggreat wiki page name: ArmyOfCrashingThings
2007-02-24T14:41:51  <Tv> pfein: they're dismantling the lunch tables
2007-02-24T14:41:51  <__moshez> what is eveeryone doing for the next talk
2007-02-24T14:41:53  <pfein> ErikRose: what?  I can't hear you, there's all this stuff crashing around.
2007-02-24T14:41:56  <ErikRose> I'm starting a sprint. ;-)
2007-02-24T14:42:06  <pfein> ErikRose: it's my new band name.
2007-02-24T14:42:09  <ErikRose> lol
2007-02-24T14:42:12  * ErikRose is a percussionist.
2007-02-24T14:42:20  * ErikRose is a one-man army of crashing things.
2007-02-24T14:42:24  <Tv> __moshez: I was thinking of the eggs thing
2007-02-24T14:42:31  <wam_> I'm doing the LittleLanguages preso
2007-02-24T14:42:42  <__moshez> did you bring rotten eggs
2007-02-24T14:42:43  <Veloso> The weird semantics we're talking about here makes me wonder what's so bad about an elif chain.
2007-02-24T14:42:47  <__moshez> to throw at the presenter
2007-02-24T14:42:51  <rmunn> eggs for me, I need to learn how to structure egg metadata
2007-02-24T14:42:53  * __moshez hugs elif chains
2007-02-24T14:43:03  <ErikRose> I think I can read about eggs in the docs.
2007-02-24T14:43:05  <dijix> I think little languages for me
2007-02-24T14:43:07  <mwh> i think i will be quietly hungover in a corner
2007-02-24T14:43:12  <ErikRose> LL sounds interesting.
2007-02-24T14:43:13  <mwh> what's the third option?
2007-02-24T14:43:18  <mwh> eggs, ll, ???
2007-02-24T14:43:25  <DuncF> django
2007-02-24T14:43:33  <Tv> not django
2007-02-24T14:43:33  <ErikRose> These cases remind me of Philip Eby's generic functions.
2007-02-24T14:43:34  <dijix> Becoming an Open Source developer - lessons from Django Project
2007-02-24T14:43:36  <__moshez> mwh: quietly hangovering sounds fun
2007-02-24T14:43:38  <wam_> becoming open source developer
2007-02-24T14:43:39  <rmunn> "Becoming an Open Source Developer: Lessons from the Django Project"
2007-02-24T14:43:39  <Tv> what the django guys learned of open source
2007-02-24T14:43:42  <benbangert> good thing we have all these new reserved words, now I can start a few more web frameworks
2007-02-24T14:43:44  <ErikRose> `case`s, I mean.
2007-02-24T14:43:44  <rmunn> darn, dijix beat me to it]
2007-02-24T14:43:46  <mwh> __moshez: it isn't
2007-02-24T14:44:10  <mwh> benbangert: :-)
2007-02-24T14:44:28  <ErikRose> Hooray!
2007-02-24T14:44:30  <dijix> democracy in action
2007-02-24T14:44:30  <Tv> wait wait what was that?
2007-02-24T14:44:33  <__moshez> I want to hug guido
2007-02-24T14:44:36  <Catspaw_pycon> pythocracy
2007-02-24T14:44:37  <wam_> man I love how language decisions get made here
2007-02-24T14:44:38  <four0four> yay!
2007-02-24T14:44:39  <ErikRose> Tv: "no cases at all" is what I meant
2007-02-24T14:44:41  <__moshez> Tv: the evil "sometimes crap is precompiled"
2007-02-24T14:44:43  <rmunn> "How many would rather use perl..." :-P
2007-02-24T14:44:43  <Tv> aaah!
2007-02-24T14:44:48  <rmunn> I mean :-D
2007-02-24T14:46:12  <ErikRose> input() is wackyCoolScary.
2007-02-24T14:46:15  <rmunn> Hooray, input() is dangerous and needs to die.
2007-02-24T14:46:37  <Tv> I've so wanted to have a variable called "input" so many times.
2007-02-24T14:46:43  <__moshez> it is fine
2007-02-24T14:46:44  *** sjzabel has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T14:46:45  <ErikRose> Tv, nothing stops you.
2007-02-24T14:46:54  <ErikRose> Well, I guess not nothing. ;-)
2007-02-24T14:46:56  <__moshez> since no code uses input() unless you're fucking insane
2007-02-24T14:46:58  <Tv> ErikRose: the syntax highlighting screams at me
2007-02-24T14:47:02  <rmunn> Tv: the input() function will still be around, it will just have raw_input()'s semantics.
2007-02-24T14:47:03  <ErikRose> Tv: Oh.
2007-02-24T14:47:09  <__moshez> Tv: don't use emacs --> problem solved
2007-02-24T14:47:33  <rmunn> Python and vim: Two great tastes that go great together.
2007-02-24T14:47:35  <Tv> __moshez: umm, I don't take editor suggestions from weirdos ;)
2007-02-24T14:47:44  <ErikRose> Is iteration really faster than a function call? Somebody said that yesterday in the ITerators session. But I don't see how, since doens't next() need to be called?
2007-02-24T14:47:44  <ecn> great, what about id()?
2007-02-24T14:47:47  <__moshez> I'm not a weirdo :((
2007-02-24T14:48:00  <ErikRose> BBEdit forever. ;-)
2007-02-24T14:48:11  *** creiht has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T14:48:27  <benbangert> I'm waiting for the official pronouncement on shorthand for saying __something__
2007-02-24T14:48:30  <Tv> ErikRose: maybe they meant internal thingies are faster, where next() is c-level
2007-02-24T14:48:46  <wam_> yeah, that's what I'd think...
2007-02-24T14:48:49  <dougn> ErikRose: all depends. if its 'for x in an-iter' its faster (i.e. internal C/API stuff does the work)
2007-02-24T14:49:03  <__moshez> bb: "under under something"
2007-02-24T14:49:06  <ErikRose> dougn: Oh, so it just saves interpetation?
2007-02-24T14:49:22  <dijix> benbangert: I usually just say "double-score something"
2007-02-24T14:49:25  <benbangert> __moshez: yea... not a fan of that, I like 'dunder something' better
2007-02-24T14:49:37  <rmunn> I don't even remember what softspace did/does...
2007-02-24T14:49:50  <Tv> but you can't confuse __foo with __foo__
2007-02-24T14:49:52  <__moshez> rmunn: trust me, you don't want to
2007-02-24T14:49:52  <wam_> what was up with has_key on dicts?
2007-02-24T14:49:53  <Tv> those are different!
2007-02-24T14:50:06  <__moshez> wam: it dies and fucking good riddance
2007-02-24T14:50:10  <benbangert> Tv: right, so dunder implies both before and after double scores ;)
2007-02-24T14:50:10  <ErikRose> How about "special foo"?
2007-02-24T14:50:12  <rmunn> "Dunder" is too easy to confuse with "under". I like "double-score", I may start using it.
2007-02-24T14:50:17  <Veloso> rmunn: It's the property the print statement uses to store spaces-between-items state
2007-02-24T14:50:23  <dougn> ErikRose: yes, it diesnt need to go back to the bytecode for a bunch of stuff.
2007-02-24T14:50:26  <pfein> I say it "magic" sometimes
2007-02-24T14:50:26  <Tv> benbangert: but that's not "d" double, that's "q" quadruple!
2007-02-24T14:50:33  <dougn> *doesnt
2007-02-24T14:50:36  <Tv> or double-double!
2007-02-24T14:50:55  <dijix> now it sounds like we're ordering at Starbuck's
2007-02-24T14:51:03  <__moshez> heheh
2007-02-24T14:51:12  <dijix> "grande init"
2007-02-24T14:51:20  <wam_> so idoim for has_key() will be to index and catch exception, or .get(index, SENTINAL_VALUE)?
2007-02-24T14:51:33  <rmunn> Hold the switch/case, please.
2007-02-24T14:51:38  <__moshez> "x in dict"
2007-02-24T14:51:48  <wam_> doh, gotcha.
2007-02-24T14:51:52  <__moshez> or dict.__contains__(x) if you really really want a method
2007-02-24T14:51:56  <__moshez> for some insane reason
2007-02-24T14:52:12  <rmunn> Maybe you need to hand a method to a callback func
2007-02-24T14:52:15  <ErikRose> Functional programming
2007-02-24T14:52:21  <ErikRose> exactly
2007-02-24T14:52:27  <__moshez> insaneos
2007-02-24T14:52:38  *** kn6xq has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T14:52:57  *** gldnspud has quit IRC
2007-02-24T14:53:27  <dijix> connectivity has been great today <knock on wood>
2007-02-24T14:53:48  <rmunn> No ad-hoc networks today.
2007-02-24T14:53:50  <ErikRose> Ditto,. Kudos, network peoples.
2007-02-24T14:54:09  *** ari has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T14:54:11  <rmunn> Saw an ad-hoc network with the wrong name at a different conference, too -- and same result: it was knocking a lot of people off the "real" network.
2007-02-24T14:54:24  <rmunn> I think yesterday's problems had a lot to do with that one incorrect ad-hoc network.
2007-02-24T14:54:45  <pfein> thank goodness for whitespace preservation.  svn diff would be a disaster w/o it.
2007-02-24T14:55:15  <wam_> man, I have a LOT of code that uses backticks
2007-02-24T14:55:23  <ErikRose> Ouch.
2007-02-24T14:55:29  <rmunn> I've never used them.
2007-02-24T14:55:33  <Tv> wam_: sucks to be you
2007-02-24T14:55:35  <rmunn> Felt too shell-scripting-ish to me.
2007-02-24T14:55:39  <alect> heh
2007-02-24T14:55:42  <pfein> I'm gonna get whack by raise E, args.
2007-02-24T14:55:44  <Tv> rmunn: eww, ` in shell is even worse
2007-02-24T14:55:45  <pfein> er, whacked
2007-02-24T14:55:46  <Tv> $() baby
2007-02-24T14:55:47  * ErikRose tends to dislike anything that isn't a function.
2007-02-24T14:55:56  <ErikRose> Except "in". I like that, and I don't know why.
2007-02-24T14:56:00  <wam_> all my logging debug statements use them so I can see if things are whitespace terminated, etc
2007-02-24T14:56:05  <rmunn> Tv: I always pipe into xargs when I'm on the command line
2007-02-24T14:56:10  <Tv> wam_: %r
2007-02-24T14:56:46  <Tv> rmunn: there are other tricks to play than just xargs-like multiple items listed
2007-02-24T14:56:48  <wam_> hmm... ok, I'll start using that then.
2007-02-24T14:57:04  <__moshez> man
2007-02-24T14:57:06  <rmunn> I've never really learned the subtleties of shell scripting.
2007-02-24T14:57:15  <rmunn> All the different ${foo:bar} options...
2007-02-24T14:57:36  <ErikRose> rmunn: And it depends on your shell, for additional fun.
2007-02-24T14:57:37  <ari> __moshez: i didn't know you were here
2007-02-24T14:57:37  <rmunn> I have to look them up each time.
2007-02-24T14:57:46  <wam_> it's hard to use those  in a really portable way
2007-02-24T14:57:46  <__moshez> ari: I am here though! a lot
2007-02-24T14:57:51  <ari> indeed
2007-02-24T14:58:12  <__moshez> ari: second column from the left, second table from the back
2007-02-24T14:58:15  <__moshez> ari: position!!
2007-02-24T14:58:26  <ari> i see you in the first column, second row
2007-02-24T14:58:40  <Tv> battleships!
2007-02-24T14:58:55  <__moshez> Tv: we should totally do battleships-over-irc
2007-02-24T14:58:59  <ari> i left after he started talking about the subtleties of range()
2007-02-24T14:59:05  <rmunn> "You sunk my djangoshiiiiiip...."
2007-02-24T14:59:06  <__moshez> ari: whyyyyy
2007-02-24T14:59:10  <ari> __moshez: irc pong
2007-02-24T14:59:11  *** kn6xq has quit IRC
2007-02-24T14:59:18  <Tv> __moshez: with ships formed by canonical, twisted, django etc people in the audience
2007-02-24T14:59:19  *** __moshez is now known as _moshez
2007-02-24T14:59:30  <_moshez> Tv: YES it will be awesome
2007-02-24T14:59:43  <_moshez> except is radix canonical or twiste
2007-02-24T14:59:44  <_moshez> d
2007-02-24T14:59:51  <ErikRose> I think we should build a steam-powered automatic staircase destroyer.
2007-02-24T14:59:56  <Tv> _moshez: he'll be a single-block rowboat!
2007-02-24T14:59:58  <pgries> Hey, did he say range() is going away?
2007-02-24T15:00:05  <_chris_> battleship is SUCH a good idea
2007-02-24T15:00:08  <ErikRose> pgries: Nope
2007-02-24T15:00:11  <pgries> Phew.
2007-02-24T15:00:17  <pfein> pgries: range() means xrange(), I think
2007-02-24T15:00:26  <rmunn> range() will now have xrange() semantics.
2007-02-24T15:00:32  <dijix> pgries: nope, range() and xrange() will merge, so range(0 will do what xrange() does now..
2007-02-24T15:00:33  <_moshez> except awesomer
2007-02-24T15:00:33  <Tv> but you do realize you can't play battleships while the divider wall is removed
2007-02-24T15:00:34  <wam_> seems like it could detect string exceptions
2007-02-24T15:00:38  <pgries> What if I want a list?
2007-02-24T15:00:39  <dijix> range(), that is
2007-02-24T15:00:40  <Tv> you need the two rooms that don't see eachother!
2007-02-24T15:00:41  <ErikRose> I'd like a rage() function.
2007-02-24T15:00:45  <_moshez> pgries: list(range())
2007-02-24T15:00:53  <Tv> ErikRose: anger()
2007-02-24T15:00:57  <alect> for victim in rage(): victim.kill()
2007-02-24T15:00:59  <pgries> You rang()?
2007-02-24T15:01:03  <ari> rangelist()
2007-02-24T15:01:06  <_moshez> pgries: how often have you wanted range() as a list
2007-02-24T15:01:19  <pgries> Whenever I teach new students about lists.
2007-02-24T15:01:20  <Catspaw_pycon> often, when teaching, you would
2007-02-24T15:01:21  <_moshez> pgries: 10 years of programming python, I don't remember needing it once
2007-02-24T15:01:22  <Catspaw_pycon> yeah, what he said.
2007-02-24T15:01:32  <_moshez> pgries: it is a stupid teaching method
2007-02-24T15:01:37  <_moshez> show them [0,1,2,3]
2007-02-24T15:01:47  <pgries> I do.
2007-02-24T15:01:50  <_moshez> or even better ["moshe", "tv"]
2007-02-24T15:01:57  <coderanger_> from teaching import range
2007-02-24T15:02:06  <pgries> _moshez: I appreciate your frankness.  :-)
2007-02-24T15:02:41  <ari> franknesstein
2007-02-24T15:02:42  <_moshez> pgries: I tell it like it is :)
2007-02-24T15:02:44  <_moshez> *hugs*
2007-02-24T15:03:00  <pgries> *loses all self-confidence*
2007-02-24T15:03:03  <pgries> *weeps*
2007-02-24T15:03:05  <_moshez> pgries: where are you
2007-02-24T15:03:09  <_moshez> also do not weep
2007-02-24T15:03:13  *** Veloso has quit IRC
2007-02-24T15:03:18  <pgries> Back left of the room!
2007-02-24T15:03:26  <ErikRose> Weep quieter; I can't hear. ;-)
2007-02-24T15:03:43  <Catspaw_pycon> nnorwitz: I see you reading this over a shoulder!
2007-02-24T15:03:43  <_moshez> very back?
2007-02-24T15:03:47  <_chris_> hah
2007-02-24T15:03:57  <Catspaw_pycon> That's right.  I'm talking to you.
2007-02-24T15:03:59  <benbangert> btw, earlier when Guido said .keys() will return something like a set, it won't be a set.
2007-02-24T15:04:12  <pgries> Seconfd to last row, blond ponytail.  Scruffy beard.
2007-02-24T15:04:43  <_moshez> and a mustache?
2007-02-24T15:04:44  <rmunn> reduce() has been reduced.
2007-02-24T15:05:04  <ErikRose> Fair 'nuff.
2007-02-24T15:05:06  <pgries> Yep.  You?
2007-02-24T15:05:18  <_chris_> time for python eggs
2007-02-24T15:05:18  <_moshez> I'm waving
2007-02-24T15:05:19  <_chris_> ttyl
2007-02-24T15:05:21  *** _chris_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T15:05:25  *** nerd_alert has quit IRC
2007-02-24T15:05:25  <_moshez> bye all\
2007-02-24T15:05:30  <ErikRose> 'Twas fun!
2007-02-24T15:05:36  *** thatch has quit IRC
2007-02-24T15:05:39  <pfein> w00t!
2007-02-24T15:05:45  *** rmunn has quit IRC
2007-02-24T15:05:46  *** _moshez has quit IRC
2007-02-24T15:05:50  <retracile> little languages for me
2007-02-24T15:05:51  *** pgries has quit IRC
2007-02-24T15:05:57  *** __jt__ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T15:05:59  <ari> i'm going to learn how to be an open source developer
2007-02-24T15:06:27  *** creiht has quit IRC
2007-02-24T15:06:54  <ErikRose> I am going to pretend Python is Lisp.
2007-02-24T15:07:01  *** ErikRose has quit IRC
2007-02-24T15:07:33  *** Catspaw_pycon has quit IRC
2007-02-24T15:08:42  *** rmunn has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:08:47  <rmunn> eggs, yum
2007-02-24T15:08:58  <dougn> django time
2007-02-24T15:09:09  *** thatch has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:09:11  <dougn> man the wireless is good this year.
2007-02-24T15:09:17  <mwh> yay 500 errors on the con site
2007-02-24T15:09:19  <gps> the 11a wireless is good
2007-02-24T15:09:30  <ari> if only i didn't get rid of my abg card
2007-02-24T15:09:31  <dougn> thats what I am on
2007-02-24T15:09:32  <gps> the 11b/g wireless seems to have signal strength issues
2007-02-24T15:09:50  <dougn> stuff the laptop in the bag, walk around take it out... swapped 3 apps and still connected
2007-02-24T15:10:00  <ari> i was wondering why i had problems getting signal and then i turned the power management off
2007-02-24T15:10:07  <gps> setting the aps to low sig strength for b/g may not have been a good idea but 2.4ghz is so full of other interference anyways not sure if it'd help
2007-02-24T15:10:18  *** vslashg has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:10:29  *** benbangert has quit IRC
2007-02-24T15:10:41  <dougn> I thought sean mentioned turning them up, but it had more problems.
2007-02-24T15:10:52  <wam_> FYI: I'm now updating my live notes at http://wamber.net/static/PyCon-2007/
2007-02-24T15:11:25  <gps> no idea i haven't talked to sean
2007-02-24T15:11:27  <dougn> this is the most blogged pycon ever. we had maybe 4 posts last year, and over 50 this year
2007-02-24T15:11:29  <dougn> so far
2007-02-24T15:11:34  <gps> hehe
2007-02-24T15:11:35  <four0four> Im noticing a big wifi improvement today over yesterday
2007-02-24T15:11:44  <mwh> does anyone here have a nokia charger i could borrow for a bit?
2007-02-24T15:11:48  <dougn> more apps were rolled out
2007-02-24T15:11:52  <gps> thanks much for whoever decided to have 11a, it rocks :)
2007-02-24T15:12:02  <dougn> mwh: sorry, no.. have Mot and LG
2007-02-24T15:12:08  *** kn6xq has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:12:25  *** tpollari has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:12:28  <dijix> four0four: definitely
2007-02-24T15:12:40  *** Six`oh`six has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:12:41  <gps> heh "i wish this site were powered by" logo
2007-02-24T15:12:51  <dougn> Sean Reifschneider (of www.tummy.com) is doing all the networking.
2007-02-24T15:13:12  <Six`oh`six> "turtle geometry"
2007-02-24T15:13:15  *** ErikRose has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:13:18  <wam_> yeah, that's the static site... main site does use django now
2007-02-24T15:13:21  *** creiht has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:13:33  <dijix> I recall him saying something about putting in some more access points today.. it's showing
2007-02-24T15:14:18  *** cablehead has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:14:21  *** gldnspud has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:14:24  <ErikRose> Oh, is that what he meant? He abbrev'd it "apps" and I didn't get it. :-)
2007-02-24T15:14:36  <ari> aps
2007-02-24T15:14:40  <ErikRose> right
2007-02-24T15:14:47  <ErikRose> I think he bounced on "p".
2007-02-24T15:15:16  *** gldnspud has quit IRC
2007-02-24T15:15:25  *** mwh has quit IRC
2007-02-24T15:15:27  *** vslashg is now known as Veloso
2007-02-24T15:15:34  <ErikRose> Pepsi is a lot fizzier than Dr. Pepper.
2007-02-24T15:16:13  <ErikRose> Yeah, web programming is really amenable to functional representation.
2007-02-24T15:16:25  <dougn> I highly recommend getting some 'real' Dr. pepper. the bottling plant is over in dublin (near by) so local stores have it. made with cane sugar instead of corn syrup
2007-02-24T15:16:30  <kn6xq> I think you got some old Dr. P.
2007-02-24T15:16:32  *** benbangert has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:16:45  <ErikRose> dougn: Wow. I shall have to.
2007-02-24T15:16:55  <ErikRose> dougn: Is the bottle different looking?
2007-02-24T15:17:07  <creiht> Dublin DP rocks
2007-02-24T15:17:12  <dougn> ErikRose: the glass bottles are different and so are the cans
2007-02-24T15:17:27  <ErikRose> dougn: Cool. Thx!
2007-02-24T15:17:31  <dougn> http://www.dublindrpepper.com/
2007-02-24T15:17:35  <ErikRose> ooo
2007-02-24T15:18:10  *** jerry_s has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:18:11  <dougn> (I'm a bostonian and have it shipped @ $80 for 2 cases once a year >.<)
2007-02-24T15:18:18  <ErikRose> Dang.
2007-02-24T15:18:39  <rmunn> dougn: how many bottles/cans in a case?
2007-02-24T15:19:18  *** kamalgill has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:19:18  <four0four> huh, didnt know there was a Dublin , tx
2007-02-24T15:19:26  <retracile> ErikRose: try Central Market for the Dublin DP
2007-02-24T15:19:28  <dougn> http://www.olddocs.com/results.aspx?cat=Drinks&subcat1=Dr+Pepper
2007-02-24T15:19:31  <ErikRose> k
2007-02-24T15:19:40  <dougn> The cost is in shipping 20lb of soda
2007-02-24T15:19:45  <ErikRose> retracile: Izzat in walking distance?
2007-02-24T15:19:56  <rmunn> Ah, right.
2007-02-24T15:19:57  <dougn> its like $16 a case for 24
2007-02-24T15:20:04  *** jbellis has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:20:06  <retracile> Uhhh... probably not... this IS Texas, ya know...
2007-02-24T15:20:08  <dougn> bottles
2007-02-24T15:20:38  <DuncF> retractile: I didn 't think anywhere in the US did walking ;-)
2007-02-24T15:20:47  <gps> a cow of mine is doing web stuff in lisp for fun
2007-02-24T15:20:57  <ErikRose> Smart cow.
2007-02-24T15:21:01  <gps> moo
2007-02-24T15:21:07  <gps> yeah hes nuts
2007-02-24T15:21:09  <dijix> I walk at home.. except for the living room.. too big, must use bicycle.
2007-02-24T15:21:15  <ErikRose> lol
2007-02-24T15:21:37  <rmunn> gps: Wow, I did a double take before I figured out what you meant. :-)
2007-02-24T15:21:51  *** nerd_alert has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:21:51  <dijix> with a herd of those cows, I could take over the world!
2007-02-24T15:22:07  <gps> like the southpark cows
2007-02-24T15:22:14  <creiht> dijix: Would you say a beowolf cluster of cows?
2007-02-24T15:22:19  <dougn> moo moo moo moo?
2007-02-24T15:22:27  <dijix> creiht: I was thinking of that, but went the herd route :)
2007-02-24T15:22:31  *** _chris_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:22:32  <retracile> ErikRose: you'll be here for the sprints, iirc, right?  We've got time to get you some real DP
2007-02-24T15:22:38  <dijix> mooOO?
2007-02-24T15:22:52  <ErikRose> retracile: Yessuh.
2007-02-24T15:23:02  <ErikRose> I don't leave till Wednesday.
2007-02-24T15:23:04  <rmunn> http://www.cowswithguns.com/cowmovie.html
2007-02-24T15:23:17  <rmunn> Watch with headphones on, of course.
2007-02-24T15:23:31  *** matt_good has quit IRC
2007-02-24T15:23:32  <gps> hehe
2007-02-24T15:23:56  <ErikRose> Gosh, I'm tired of looking at untransformed XML.
2007-02-24T15:24:08  * ErikRose develops with Plone. ;-)
2007-02-24T15:24:26  <ErikRose> Where are all these nice, humane XML UIs we were promised?
2007-02-24T15:24:33  *** pgries has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:24:35  <ErikRose> That'd be a good Cocoa project for me.
2007-02-24T15:24:35  <alect> heh
2007-02-24T15:24:47  <alect> i think most sane people gave up on that promise of xml loooong ago
2007-02-24T15:24:54  <dijix> and flying cars!  We were promised flying cars!
2007-02-24T15:24:56  *** greenfngrs has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:24:58  <ErikRose> I wish they'd given up using it too, then. ;-)
2007-02-24T15:25:13  <ErikRose> My Volantor is on order. ;-)
2007-02-24T15:26:11  <tpollari>  humane XML UIs and flying cars man...
2007-02-24T15:26:13  *** pfein has quit IRC
2007-02-24T15:27:18  *** pfein has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:27:24  <dijix> ErikRose: yes, I want one!
2007-02-24T15:27:26  <ErikRose> XML is worse than C++.
2007-02-24T15:27:28  *** jtauber has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:27:34  <ErikRose> Amazingly.
2007-02-24T15:27:46  <rmunn> "The egg system encourages you to put all your code ..." and I thought ... "into one basket".
2007-02-24T15:28:00  <ErikRose> Yes! He's using s-expressions instead of XML. ;-)
2007-02-24T15:28:04  <dijix> rmunn: the Easter Bunny does..
2007-02-24T15:28:41  <rmunn> That's it! The cheeseshop should be renamed the "Basket", or the "Python Basket".
2007-02-24T15:29:03  <jerry_s> egg basket?
2007-02-24T15:29:12  <ErikRose> Yeah, but we could use XSLT and totally limit ourselves to just XML. (sarcastically)
2007-02-24T15:29:47  <Tv> okay, here's why I dislike easy_install:
2007-02-24T15:29:53  <kn6xq> Then everyone could find your package.
2007-02-24T15:30:01  <Tv> it downloads stuff and runs it _before_ I got to look at it
2007-02-24T15:30:14  <ErikRose> Somebody could bring up generic methods at this point.
2007-02-24T15:30:21  <ErikRose> (in the LL talk)
2007-02-24T15:30:26  <Tv> I want download, read README, review code a bit, *then* build.
2007-02-24T15:31:31  <_chris_> my beef with eggs is that i tend to get tracebacks to files that don't exist
2007-02-24T15:31:31  *** greenfngrs has quit IRC
2007-02-24T15:31:32  <_chris_> for example -
2007-02-24T15:31:52  <Tv> oh yeah
2007-02-24T15:31:55  <Tv> I wouldn't use zips
2007-02-24T15:31:58  <_chris_> if i get a stack that originates in an entry point then the eggs say: "you have an error on line 35 of /path/to/something.py"
2007-02-24T15:32:03  <_chris_> i vi +35 /path/to/something.py
2007-02-24T15:32:04  <dijix> I've had that problem before
2007-02-24T15:32:08  <rmunn> Whoa -- I was going to say "just use the --download-only option"... but there isn't one.
2007-02-24T15:32:16  <_chris_> and it's just importing some egg crapola and going from there
2007-02-24T15:32:18  <_chris_> i hate that!
2007-02-24T15:32:20  <rmunn> Tv: OTOH, there is an "--always-unzip" option.
2007-02-24T15:32:33  <Tv> rmunn: I also hate things where the default is the silly unwanted version.. :(
2007-02-24T15:32:37  <_chris_> dijix: what did you do to get around it?
2007-02-24T15:32:52  *** greenfngrs has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:32:56  *** wam_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T15:32:59  <Tv> rmunn: so even if I had a --no-goddammit-i-care-about-security-and-pureness, the default would still be wrong.
2007-02-24T15:33:01  *** truk77 has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:33:33  <rmunn> Tv: Are you in the talk right now?
2007-02-24T15:33:36  <Tv> rmunn: yeah
2007-02-24T15:33:44  <Tv> right back corner
2007-02-24T15:33:49  <rmunn> I'm thinking about asking about GPG signing of eggs
2007-02-24T15:33:53  <dijix> chris: just had to keep tring to easy_install the dependents,,, I finally got things working, though.. it was when trying to get TurboGears up and running one time behind an NTLM firewall
2007-02-24T15:33:54  <Tv> that won't help
2007-02-24T15:33:58  <Tv> I don't trust the guy who signed
2007-02-24T15:33:58  <rmunn> Problem is, how do you verify the key?
2007-02-24T15:34:11  <Tv> I want to *read up* first, only then run.
2007-02-24T15:34:25  *** dydimustk has quit IRC
2007-02-24T15:34:26  <_chris_> dijix: i thought you were referring to tracebacks that reference bogus line numbers in files.
2007-02-24T15:34:28  *** crimsonK has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:34:58  <dijix> _chris_: wait.. I see more of what y ou are getting at.. that's what I get for not reading
2007-02-24T15:36:27  *** ptme has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:36:33  <rmunn> At least we haven't been suffering through hundreds of bad "egg" puns.
2007-02-24T15:36:38  <ErikRose> I am impressed. Python can be written Lispier than I realized.
2007-02-24T15:36:45  <rmunn> E.g., he said "external", he didn't try to say "eggs-ternal"..
2007-02-24T15:36:46  <Tv> yeah, no bad eggs in this crowd
2007-02-24T15:36:53  <ErikRose> I hadn't though of using kwargs like this, essentially to represent a program.
2007-02-24T15:37:07  <ErikRose> OTOH, they're unordered.
2007-02-24T15:37:10  <jerry_s> Are you guys "cracking" jokes?
2007-02-24T15:37:14  <rmunn> ErikRose: which talk are you in? The Litlte Languages one?
2007-02-24T15:37:14  <dijix> heheh
2007-02-24T15:37:15  * ErikRose will have to think about this.
2007-02-24T15:37:18  <ErikRose> rmunn: yes
2007-02-24T15:37:24  <rmunn> jerry_s: trying to avoid them, they're far too obvious
2007-02-24T15:37:29  <creiht> Tv: There is a --dry-run option
2007-02-24T15:37:32  <jerry_s> heh
2007-02-24T15:37:34  <creiht> Still downlaods everything
2007-02-24T15:37:37  <tpollari> jerrs_s: don't egg them on...
2007-02-24T15:37:39  <creiht> but doesn't install
2007-02-24T15:37:46  <Tv> yeah, even a blind chicken would find the egg jokes obvious
2007-02-24T15:37:48  <rmunn> ErikRose: I should have gone to that one, I knew most of what was in the first egg presentation.
2007-02-24T15:37:49  <ari> looks like someone has egg all ove rtheir face
2007-02-24T15:37:53  *** shawn_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T15:37:58  *** rorsini has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:37:59  <rmunn> Hopefully the second one will be more advanced
2007-02-24T15:38:01  <ErikRose> rmunn: Well, I'm sorry for you and glad for me. :-)
2007-02-24T15:38:07  <ErikRose> rmunn: I do have some notes for you.
2007-02-24T15:38:09  <Six`oh`six> little languages man is faaast!
2007-02-24T15:38:15  <Tv> creiht: dry run sounds more like "do nothing, just print"
2007-02-24T15:38:16  <benbangert> hmmm
2007-02-24T15:38:18  <ErikRose> I think you have to be to get through enough stuff
2007-02-24T15:38:31  <benbangert> Is the egg thing covering zipped eggs?
2007-02-24T15:38:32  <Tv> creiht: I mostly want download + unpack source, and then a separate command for the rest
2007-02-24T15:38:38  <creiht> Tv: Well the docs say that it still downloads the files (including dependancies)
2007-02-24T15:38:38  <benbangert> Cause that is a real beast to deal with
2007-02-24T15:38:42  *** wam_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:38:44  <Tv> I guess I'm just not target audience for eggs
2007-02-24T15:38:44  <creiht> At which point you could check it out
2007-02-24T15:38:51  <Tv> creiht: THAT'S NOT DRY RUN!?!?!
2007-02-24T15:38:57  <ErikRose> rmunn et al: was the eggs guy good?
2007-02-24T15:38:58  * Tv loses all faith in eggs
2007-02-24T15:39:02  *** Six`oh`six has quit IRC
2007-02-24T15:39:13  <ErikRose> I'm thinking of coming over for Part 2.
2007-02-24T15:39:17  <Tv> oh well
2007-02-24T15:39:19  * ErikRose has packaging problems to solve.
2007-02-24T15:39:24  <rmunn> I'd say he's good, it's just the material he's covering is stuff I already know.
2007-02-24T15:39:30  <wam_> sorry guys, had my first wireless drop of the conference and didn't notice I had gone offline.
2007-02-24T15:39:32  <ErikRose> rmunn: Okay. I'll give him a chance.
2007-02-24T15:39:33  <benbangert> I thought everyone already used eggs? ;)
2007-02-24T15:39:37  <Tv> eggs always seemed like duplication of proper distro packaging, to me
2007-02-24T15:39:48  *** __jt__ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:39:57  <ErikRose> I would use Debian packages, but my clients are using every OS under the sun.
2007-02-24T15:40:00  <benbangert> Tv: they're hopefully going to be the new 'proper' distro packaging
2007-02-24T15:40:03  <rmunn> A little dry maybe, but I'd rather that than too many "egg" jokes.
2007-02-24T15:40:04  <Tv> (and no, eggs can't replace that; the best they could do is *help* it, but then you can't pretend to do dependencies in eggs)
2007-02-24T15:40:17  *** ErikRose has quit IRC
2007-02-24T15:40:24  <rmunn> Tv: Problem is, there's no distro packaging on Windows.
2007-02-24T15:40:28  *** sjzabel has quit IRC
2007-02-24T15:40:30  <Tv> rmunn: fsck windows
2007-02-24T15:40:35  <rmunn> And on OS X, you get to choose.
2007-02-24T15:40:49  <ari> but windows has installers
2007-02-24T15:40:50  <rmunn> Tv: I have to care about Windows, I have to support lots of users who use it.
2007-02-24T15:40:52  <Tv> rmunn: I run my stuff on servers, not desktops.
2007-02-24T15:41:00  <truk77> yay for gentoo portage
2007-02-24T15:41:14  <Tv> truk77: don't you have something you should compile?-)
2007-02-24T15:41:30  <ari> he's doing it right now
2007-02-24T15:41:37  <wam_> the DSL talk was decent
2007-02-24T15:41:40  <rmunn> And there's dozens of distros, whereas eggs are write-once-run-anywhere.
2007-02-24T15:41:44  <truk77> no, but I was an hour ago... ;)
2007-02-24T15:41:46  <rmunn> Or write-once-install-anywhere.
2007-02-24T15:41:55  <Tv> rmunn: pfft, write-once-integrate-poorly-everywhere
2007-02-24T15:42:01  <wam_> not a whole lot that was new, kind of neat to see it codified in a talk.
2007-02-24T15:42:05  <Tv> write-once-install-all-over-the-filesystem
2007-02-24T15:42:12  <ari> write once, conflict with OS packaging system
2007-02-24T15:42:16  <truk77> so has the lisp vs python thing already been?
2007-02-24T15:42:27  <rmunn> truk77: Hope not.
2007-02-24T15:43:18  *** creiht has quit IRC
2007-02-24T15:43:34  <kn6xq> don't you always have to update easy_install also?
2007-02-24T15:43:38  *** tpollari has quit IRC
2007-02-24T15:44:28  <retracile> Is the "becoming an opensource developer" talk way over time, or did something get rescheduled?
2007-02-24T15:44:43  <wam_> now it's legal for open source
2007-02-24T15:44:47  * MarkB1 is away: Gone away for now.
2007-02-24T15:44:47  *** MarkB1 is now known as MarkB1_backSoon
2007-02-24T15:45:03  <ari> retracile: neither
2007-02-24T15:45:25  *** ErikRose has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:45:45  <ari> i mean the former
2007-02-24T15:46:25  *** ecn has quit IRC
2007-02-24T15:46:26  <retracile> ari: I was wondering what the ticket tracker had to do with IP....
2007-02-24T15:46:43  *** PluckyBlade has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:46:46  <ari> you need a ticket tracker to keep tabs on all your IP
2007-02-24T15:46:58  *** PluckyBlade is now known as jng
2007-02-24T15:48:05  <rmunn> The lisp vs. python thing is at 4:40 PM
2007-02-24T15:48:13  <ari> the $5 million python app talk sounds like it's about reddit
2007-02-24T15:48:32  *** thatch has quit IRC
2007-02-24T15:48:36  * ErikRose will be there.
2007-02-24T15:48:53  <dijix> ari: it's about Zenoss
2007-02-24T15:49:25  <ari> so close
2007-02-24T15:49:33  *** creiht has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:50:24  <ari> sometimes i wonder why they don't set up caching proxies at conferences like these
2007-02-24T15:50:38  <ari> i'm sure tons of people are going to the same sites
2007-02-24T15:51:02  <creiht> ari: We were just talking about that during the 1st keynote this morning
2007-02-24T15:51:04  *** __jt__ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T15:51:08  <wam_> it's been discussed here on IRC a few times before...
2007-02-24T15:52:10  *** detrout has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:53:15  *** detrout has quit IRC
2007-02-24T15:53:16  *** dougn has quit IRC
2007-02-24T15:53:44  *** pfein has quit IRC
2007-02-24T15:53:48  <_chris_> i talked with sean about the transparent proxy
2007-02-24T15:53:57  <_chris_> he said that he didn't have time to set it up
2007-02-24T15:54:03  <_chris_> he messed with it for a bit
2007-02-24T15:54:14  <_chris_> but he had to focus on his traffic shaping rules on the firewall
2007-02-24T15:54:19  <_chris_> but said it might be a good idea
2007-02-24T15:55:29  <alect> it seems better today
2007-02-24T15:55:39  <alect> presumably due to the traffic shaping
2007-02-24T15:56:00  <ari> i noticed it was actually usable at this morning's keynote
2007-02-24T15:56:03  <alect> i haven't been completely blocked out
2007-02-24T15:56:21  *** pgries has quit IRC
2007-02-24T15:56:26  <_chris_> my ns lookups are a lot faster too
2007-02-24T15:56:44  <_chris_> sean has made things a kajillion times better this year.;
2007-02-24T15:57:24  *** __jt__ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:58:14  *** dydimustk has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T15:59:13  *** DuncF has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:00:01  <benbangert> don't suppose someone more familiar with this area has any idea what is up with the air outside?
2007-02-24T16:00:13  <benbangert> it has that LA smog look to it, but different
2007-02-24T16:00:16  <_chris_> do you mean the wind?
2007-02-24T16:00:21  <benbangert> nah, the air
2007-02-24T16:00:27  <ari> it seemed pretty sunny when i went out an hour ago
2007-02-24T16:00:32  <_chris_> i heard some flight attendants in the lobby say the airport is closed.
2007-02-24T16:00:57  <ari> the big one?
2007-02-24T16:01:04  <_chris_> DFW
2007-02-24T16:01:14  <kn6xq> I was going on a flight today from the air museum but they said yesterday no flights today becaues of the wind.
2007-02-24T16:01:16  <_chris_> they were from British Airways so i assume so :)
2007-02-24T16:01:21  <kn6xq> It's 30 miles per hour.
2007-02-24T16:01:42  <_chris_> go here:  http://weather.noaa.gov/weather/metar.shtml
2007-02-24T16:01:44  <ari> looks like it's open to me
2007-02-24T16:01:46  <_chris_> type in KDFW
2007-02-24T16:01:58  <ErikRose> Anybody want to get some tex-mex at El Fenix for supper?
2007-02-24T16:02:00  <benbangert> DFW is closed/delayed due to wind
2007-02-24T16:02:16  <_chris_> the 3rd glob is the wind.  right now it's out of 250 degrees, at 35 knots, gusting to 44 knots.
2007-02-24T16:02:22  <alect> is the cheeseshop toast for anybody else?
2007-02-24T16:02:25  <ari> http://www.dfwairport.com/flights/fids.php?FIDStype=D
2007-02-24T16:02:34  <truk77> I need to call my wife, see if the power's still out from the wind
2007-02-24T16:02:40  <Tv> I think there was a blizzard going by or something
2007-02-24T16:02:44  <ErikRose> Good ol' POTS. :-)
2007-02-24T16:02:53  <benbangert> there's also http://www.fly.faa.gov/flyfaa/flyfaaindex.jsp?ARPT=dfw&p=0
2007-02-24T16:03:00  <benbangert> I love how the faa left in the Sun logo
2007-02-24T16:03:14  <Tv> benbangert: oh yeah the "smog" might be dust
2007-02-24T16:03:15  <ari> only some flights taking off
2007-02-24T16:03:26  <rmunn> Just have to go directly to http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi
2007-02-24T16:03:30  <rmunn> Just plain http://cheeseshop.python.org/ is bugged ATM
2007-02-24T16:03:34  <benbangert> ah, dust would explain it
2007-02-24T16:03:40  <ari> at least it's not smoke
2007-02-24T16:03:50  <benbangert> it looked sorta dusty
2007-02-24T16:04:20  <rorsini> I want to see a satelite picture of what's going on
2007-02-24T16:05:20  <dijix> good soaplib talk
2007-02-24T16:05:25  <creiht> yes
2007-02-24T16:05:37  <ErikRose> Did setuptools ever make it into the stdlib?
2007-02-24T16:05:41  <alect> weeeird. i was getting a recursive redirect on python.org/pypi
2007-02-24T16:05:43  <creiht> soaplib rocks
2007-02-24T16:05:45  <alect> working now though
2007-02-24T16:05:45  <benbangert> I think Python 2.6
2007-02-24T16:05:51  <ErikRose> benbangert: Neat. Thx
2007-02-24T16:06:07  <benbangert> it didn't make it for 2.5
2007-02-24T16:06:14  <_chris_> dijix: i wish he had joined us on ZSI rather than rolling his own...  :(
2007-02-24T16:06:21  <_chris_> dijix: we could use all the help we can get!
2007-02-24T16:07:04  <_chris_> dijix: we have a really full featured wsdl2py right now, as well as a ServiceProxy that can consume a WSDL and allow you to bind to it using keyword args.
2007-02-24T16:07:06  <wam_> _chris_: what is ZSI?
2007-02-24T16:07:18  <creiht> _chris_: If it works :)
2007-02-24T16:07:23  <_chris_> it'd be so great if he had taken his decorators and merged them into ZSI.  then he'd have wsdl2py right now
2007-02-24T16:07:24  <_chris_> :)
2007-02-24T16:07:30  <creiht> We had to hack it quite a bit to work with Axis
2007-02-24T16:08:00  <_chris_> wam: it's Zolera Soap Infrasture.  it's a soap stack that is interoperable with a lot of implementations and has a pretty active users list (100+ posts the past few months)
2007-02-24T16:08:40  <dijix> _chris_: true
2007-02-24T16:09:10  <_chris_> it's like this -
2007-02-24T16:09:29  <_chris_> unit testing has a pretty limited scope.  so does web server plugins (cause the HTTP spec is pretty straightforward)
2007-02-24T16:09:30  <_chris_> but SOAP -
2007-02-24T16:09:36  <_chris_> man it's complicated (despite it's name!)
2007-02-24T16:09:58  <_chris_> so if you go on your own to build a SOAP stack it's going to take a LOT of time to get it to the point where it's usable outside of your organization
2007-02-24T16:10:32  <_chris_> gotta go head to the $6M dollar man talk
2007-02-24T16:10:33  <_chris_> ttyl
2007-02-24T16:10:34  *** _chris_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:10:36  <wam_> man, I have to change locations for the first time today
2007-02-24T16:11:24  *** creiht has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:12:32  <ari> moving is hard
2007-02-24T16:14:18  *** rmunn has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:14:24  *** cbcunc has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:14:33  *** cablehead has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:15:09  *** ErikRose has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:15:49  *** greenfngrs has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:16:21  <benbangert> nice wind out, 40mph gusting to 50
2007-02-24T16:17:09  *** dijix2 has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T16:17:28  <wam_> Embedding Jython Apps into Firefox here.
2007-02-24T16:17:31  *** _chris_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T16:17:31  *** nerd_alert has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:17:32  *** Six`oh`six has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T16:17:40  <grover2> did you say FORTY?
2007-02-24T16:17:42  <wam_> (oh, and my notes have been updated)
2007-02-24T16:18:14  *** creiht has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T16:18:15  *** dijix has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:18:22  <dijix2> where is the $5 million talk?
2007-02-24T16:18:24  <benbangert> grover2: it was for awhile just now, yea
2007-02-24T16:18:37  <_chris_> it's in salon F - J
2007-02-24T16:18:37  *** gldnspud has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T16:18:38  *** truk77 has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:18:39  <kn6xq> its where the eggs talk was
2007-02-24T16:18:44  *** jtauber has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:19:05  *** coderanger__ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T16:19:22  <ari> they should have schedules for each room outside each room
2007-02-24T16:19:47  *** coderanger_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:19:58  *** coderanger__ is now known as coderanger_
2007-02-24T16:21:17  *** dijix has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T16:21:23  *** rmunn has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T16:21:28  *** ErikRose has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T16:21:31  *** dijix2 has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:21:50  <gps> man its a 50mph+ windy brown dustbowl outside!
2007-02-24T16:21:52  <gps> yay Texas
2007-02-24T16:22:22  <creiht> gps: At least we are not stuck in 2 feet of snow :)
2007-02-24T16:22:32  <ari> or 2 inches of ice
2007-02-24T16:22:36  <gps> hehehe aww i like snow :)
2007-02-24T16:22:59  <dijix> of course, we had ice here last week.. nothing like up north, but still..
2007-02-24T16:23:49  <gps> fyi - the marriot residence inn across the street where i'm staying has free wireless and free breakfast both of which i gather the conf hotel doesn't?
2007-02-24T16:24:00  <gps> (incase anyone comes here in the future)
2007-02-24T16:24:02  <_chris_> gps: hotel charges for internets
2007-02-24T16:24:16  <_chris_> gps: we heard from sean tho that all 3 T1s from the hotel are pooled
2007-02-24T16:24:19  *** jtauber has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T16:24:23  <_chris_> and the conference and the hotel guests all get out through it
2007-02-24T16:24:28  <gps> hehe
2007-02-24T16:24:41  <_chris_> so even if you pay for the internet service you're going to compete with the 500 people downstairs :)
2007-02-24T16:24:48  <gps> this ain't the IETF.  no multiple OC-48s for us
2007-02-24T16:24:58  <gps> haha thats funny chris
2007-02-24T16:26:00  *** jtauber has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:26:40  *** benbangert has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:26:54  *** jbelli1 has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T16:27:06  *** dydimustk has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:27:08  <crimsonK> is this network capacity good relative to other hotels? are there hosting facilities that could provide greater for next PyCon?
2007-02-24T16:27:19  <ErikRose> Heh, we could have it in a NOC.
2007-02-24T16:27:26  <grover2> googleplex
2007-02-24T16:27:30  <ErikRose> One without any racks in it
2007-02-24T16:27:41  <ErikRose> Bring Your Own Chair
2007-02-24T16:28:02  <ErikRose> Session 1: in the NOC
2007-02-24T16:28:05  <ErikRose> Sessiion 2: under the floor
2007-02-24T16:28:39  *** nerd_alert has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T16:29:02  <dstanek> a NOC is a good idea - talks could be in cages
2007-02-24T16:29:15  <dstanek> codemonkey comes to mind
2007-02-24T16:29:50  <dijix> BOFs should be caged
2007-02-24T16:30:16  <ari> that would work pretty well for the climbing BoF
2007-02-24T16:30:59  <ari> grover2: you joke, but google new york does host a lot of similar things
2007-02-24T16:31:31  *** kamalgill has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:31:41  *** jng has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:31:48  <grover2> hell, ms has a nice conf center in redmond
2007-02-24T16:32:00  *** thatch has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T16:32:04  *** _matt_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:32:18  <ErikRose> Damn.
2007-02-24T16:32:26  <ErikRose> dateutil is *nice*.
2007-02-24T16:32:30  <ErikRose> It does *Easter*.
2007-02-24T16:32:41  *** __jt__ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:32:45  <gps> hosting at a company just seems like itd be more annoying and koolaidy
2007-02-24T16:32:52  <ErikRose> It does "give me an iterator that'll spit back datetime objects representing all the Good Fridays starting next year".
2007-02-24T16:32:56  <gps> heh ok i didn't know it did that
2007-02-24T16:32:58  <thatch> Yeah, it is.  Btw look up the original algorithm in C for calculating Easter...
2007-02-24T16:32:58  <thatch> it's a bear
2007-02-24T16:33:09  <ErikRose> thatch: I know. That's what impresses me!
2007-02-24T16:33:13  <gps> does it do orthodox?
2007-02-24T16:33:24  *** __jt__ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T16:33:24  <ari> julian, orthodox, western
2007-02-24T16:33:27  <grover2> stardate?
2007-02-24T16:33:42  <wam_> I bet ya beer it doesn't do the Islamic calendar. :-)
2007-02-24T16:33:42  <crimsonK> wouldn't be surprised if it did
2007-02-24T16:33:46  <ari> doesn't do discordian date
2007-02-24T16:33:48  <wam_> +a beer
2007-02-24T16:33:57  *** T1 has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T16:34:02  <ErikRose> grover2: lol
2007-02-24T16:34:24  * gps *fixes out of track hotel window that was whistling in the wind*
2007-02-24T16:34:39  <gps> swatch internet time?
2007-02-24T16:34:48  <T1> it's not the wind speed, it's the darn sand that's flying in the wind
2007-02-24T16:34:55  <T1> got my eyes and mouth full of it
2007-02-24T16:34:59  <gps> yes same
2007-02-24T16:35:16  <ari> where is this sand coming from
2007-02-24T16:35:18  *** T1 is now known as Tv1
2007-02-24T16:35:18  <gps> now i feel like i've been looking at php just by walking outside
2007-02-24T16:35:24  <gps> ari: texas is full of it
2007-02-24T16:35:28  <Tv1> ari: umm, you didn't look out of the window on the plane, did you?
2007-02-24T16:35:32  <gps> hehehe
2007-02-24T16:35:35  <ari> Tv1: it was very dark
2007-02-24T16:35:42  <wam_> swatch Beats maps easily to normal dates...
2007-02-24T16:35:51  <Paavo> phew, you can feel the dust inside as well
2007-02-24T16:36:00  <ari> all i saw was darkness and then flatness and lights
2007-02-24T16:36:03  <gps> mostly because its a big flat developed plain like much of the midwest.  wind storms go long distance and pick it up
2007-02-24T16:36:22  *** Tv has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:36:25  <ari> Paavo: maybe that's why i can't see anything
2007-02-24T16:36:34  *** Tv1 is now known as Tv
2007-02-24T16:38:32  <wam_> wow, this firefox plugin they're demoing, is SUPPPER scary... totally disables Java sandbox.
2007-02-24T16:38:38  <maelztrom> grin
2007-02-24T16:39:02  <maelztrom> I kind of want to pull down the code and see if there's any calls to eval()
2007-02-24T16:39:15  <Paavo> wam_: where does it get the code it runs?
2007-02-24T16:39:17  <maelztrom> Oh look, I'm a mobile rootkit at rit!
2007-02-24T16:39:34  <wam_> it's an extension...
2007-02-24T16:39:35  *** jbellis has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:39:49  <Paavo> so it just for writing extensions in Jython?
2007-02-24T16:40:20  <wam_> yup
2007-02-24T16:40:29  <Paavo> of course, it would be pretty easy to turn that into a Python client-side scripting support, if you're insane.
2007-02-24T16:40:52  <ari> then you would need the securing python talk
2007-02-24T16:40:56  <Paavo> could be useful for apps in a controlled environment, though
2007-02-24T16:41:11  <wam_> they seem hung up on using the browser as an embedded server.
2007-02-24T16:41:14  <gps> ugh java in an extension
2007-02-24T16:41:50  <creiht> Whatever happened to python running in Mozilla nativly like JS?
2007-02-24T16:41:56  <gps> there are interesting uses for that stuff but nothing immediately practical to me personally comes to mind
2007-02-24T16:42:13  <gps> heh didn't every language have a way to embed itself like that in the late 90s?
2007-02-24T16:42:20  <gps> like the netscape tcl plugin
2007-02-24T16:42:39  <ari> i must have blocked that out of my memory
2007-02-24T16:42:50  <wam_> they're talking peer to peer apps... but lots of hand waving
2007-02-24T16:43:17  <maelztrom> be kind of nice to be able to let people install an embedded server with a click I'd think
2007-02-24T16:43:31  <maelztrom> or even bittorrent for that matter
2007-02-24T16:43:32  <wam_> literally on the screen:
2007-02-24T16:43:32  <wam_> 1)  Solve the distributed computing problem
2007-02-24T16:43:32  <wam_> 2) Do anything
2007-02-24T16:43:32  <wam_> 3) Profit
2007-02-24T16:43:48  <gps> hahaha
2007-02-24T16:43:54  *** Six`oh`six has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:44:23  <gps> ah ok in browser p2p apps is a use
2007-02-24T16:45:17  <gps> bittorrent could be made to run in browser that way.  that'd be sick.  might as well just use existing java torrent apps as a signed security off applet.
2007-02-24T16:46:20  *** kn6xq has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:47:15  *** ErikRose has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:47:36  *** nerd_alert has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:49:58  *** DuncF has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T16:50:27  *** dijix has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:50:36  *** rzoz has left #pycon
2007-02-24T16:51:20  *** gldnspud has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:51:36  *** kamalgill has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T16:52:18  *** ptme has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:52:26  *** rmunn has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:54:02  *** ErikRose has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T16:56:04  <ErikRose> Seems to me like the troubles with Java's (non) user acceptance was (1) loads slow and (2) looks non-native.
2007-02-24T16:56:09  *** _chris_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:56:19  *** jtauber has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T16:56:32  <ErikRose> Those both ought to be solved now (VM improvements, wx or whatever).
2007-02-24T16:56:45  *** jtauber has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:56:52  *** creiht has quit IRC
2007-02-24T16:57:06  <ErikRose> Perhaps we just need new marketing, i.e. a new name that hasn't Java's baggage.
2007-02-24T16:57:53  <ErikRose> Perhaps one like "Python." Python sure seems hard to sandbox. The tainting (or whatever) talk sounds fascinating.
2007-02-24T16:58:01  *** jtauber has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T16:58:05  <maelztrom> 'course
2007-02-24T16:58:08  <maelztrom> combine java and python
2007-02-24T16:58:14  <ErikRose> Hmm :-)
2007-02-24T16:58:16  <maelztrom> you'll end up with something both cpu and memory intensive I'd assume
2007-02-24T16:58:28  <maelztrom> but I've never touched jython so I guess I shouldn't speak
2007-02-24T16:58:38  *** kn6xq has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T16:58:45  <ErikRose> I haven't heard bad things, except that it's usually a version or two behind.
2007-02-24T16:58:57  *** dydimustk has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T16:59:00  <ErikRose> One of my favorite things about Python is that it *has* a language spec.
2007-02-24T16:59:06  <wam_> In the Python into Firefox talk, they were saying it has recently been updated
2007-02-24T16:59:23  * ErikRose looks.
2007-02-24T16:59:32  <maelztrom> you're saying java doesn't have a language spec? ??
2007-02-24T16:59:41  <wam_> and PyPy has potential to have java byte code emitted without having a distinct interpretter implimentation
2007-02-24T16:59:46  <ErikRose> Of course not, but PHP and Ruby don't
2007-02-24T16:59:50  <maelztrom> oh, okay
2007-02-24T16:59:58  <maelztrom> still had my head on the python in java extension bit
2007-02-24T17:00:08  <ErikRose> Nope, sorry :-)
2007-02-24T17:00:19  <ErikRose> I tend to purge things from my context really fast, without warning. ;-)
2007-02-24T17:00:20  <maelztrom> quite allright, no need to apologize for my misunderstandings
2007-02-24T17:00:36  <ErikRose> It can lead to fun misunderstandings, even in live conversation. :-)
2007-02-24T17:00:45  *** Six`oh`six has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T17:00:56  <ErikRose> My girlfriend often replies to something I just said, and I reply "What? What are you talking about? I was thinking about portfiles."
2007-02-24T17:01:47  <maelztrom> Just so long as you don't take the english language or as the disjunction instead of exclusive and answer yes it's not to bad
2007-02-24T17:01:51  <ErikRose> Jython is still stuck at 2.2, looks like.
2007-02-24T17:02:08  *** jkocherhans has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T17:02:28  <alect> pypy is targetting the jvm
2007-02-24T17:02:38  <ErikRose> "I don't know if I'm coming or going, but I'm pretty sure I am."?
2007-02-24T17:02:57  <ErikRose> Yep, we were musing yesterday that that means the eventual end of Jython.
2007-02-24T17:03:00  <dstanek> i didn't see a open space for scalable websites :-(
2007-02-24T17:03:03  <Six`oh`six> jerry_s: which lecture are you in?
2007-02-24T17:03:09  <ErikRose> dstanek: Make one! :-)
2007-02-24T17:03:13  *** jbelli1 has quit IRC
2007-02-24T17:03:14  *** creiht has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T17:03:21  <ErikRose> dstanek: Actually, there is a "My web site is too slow!" one.
2007-02-24T17:03:22  <dstanek> ErikRose: yeah i thought about that
2007-02-24T17:03:26  <jerry_s> going to the ballroom b one
2007-02-24T17:03:34  <maelztrom> "Do you want to grab a beer or go to a sprint?" "Yes"
2007-02-24T17:03:41  <alect> that pypy talk was fantastic
2007-02-24T17:03:44  *** dijix has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T17:03:47  <Six`oh`six> jerry_s: ipython? i'm there
2007-02-24T17:03:53  <wam_> ipython here
2007-02-24T17:04:01  <ari> star schema ftw
2007-02-24T17:04:04  <ErikRose> IPython.
2007-02-24T17:04:05  <dstanek> ErikRose: do you know who is running that? it almost sounds like it is for smaller sites
2007-02-24T17:04:10  <ErikRose> dstanek: No clue
2007-02-24T17:04:23  * ErikRose dstanek: Make it what you want, though
2007-02-24T17:04:38  <Six`oh`six> i'm probably just gonna read pygame tutorials during this lecture tho
2007-02-24T17:05:04  <ErikRose> Did that guy with the PyGame visualizations of call graphs ever release his stuff?
2007-02-24T17:05:07  *** thatch has quit IRC
2007-02-24T17:05:09  <creiht> dstanek: There were several of us that wanted more than what was given in the scaling websites talk, so we thought we would have a BOF to swap war stories and experiences with scalling large sites
2007-02-24T17:05:28  <dijix> ipython here
2007-02-24T17:05:30  <ErikRose> creiht: Ah, yes! When is that?
2007-02-24T17:05:30  <alect> erik: you got screenshots?
2007-02-24T17:05:36  <alect> or a link
2007-02-24T17:05:39  <alect> sounds interesting
2007-02-24T17:05:43  <ErikRose> alect: No, but it was a talk at PyCon 2005.
2007-02-24T17:05:46  <alect> this is quite cool: pycallgraph.slowchop.com
2007-02-24T17:05:49  <ErikRose> It was great.
2007-02-24T17:05:50  <creiht> ErikRose: Between the Django, and distributed systems BOFs
2007-02-24T17:05:53  <alect> but static graphs get quickly out of hand
2007-02-24T17:06:01  <alect> as evidenced by some of the links from that page
2007-02-24T17:06:10  <creiht> It's on the chart
2007-02-24T17:06:25  *** pfein has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T17:06:29  <alect> there are a number of interesting algorithms for visualising graphs that could be applied
2007-02-24T17:06:31  <ErikRose> Yes, there was a lot of zooming and flying around.
2007-02-24T17:06:51  <dstanek> creiht: is that what the slow website one it all about?
2007-02-24T17:06:51  <ErikRose> Hence the PyGame
2007-02-24T17:06:52  *** mwh has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T17:06:52  <wam_> alect where are you where that is being discussed?
2007-02-24T17:07:00  <creiht> dstanek: yes
2007-02-24T17:07:08  *** shawn has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T17:07:09  <dstanek> creiht: what time will it be at?
2007-02-24T17:07:14  *** cablehead has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T17:07:24  <creiht> I think 7:30pm if I remember correctly
2007-02-24T17:07:26  <alect> wam: nowhere sadly, i've just been interested in it for a while
2007-02-24T17:07:46  <ErikRose> alect: You'd have a great time at OOPSLA; that's where a lot of that thing hangs out.
2007-02-24T17:07:48  <alect> some great visualisation stuff here: http://www.visualcomplexity.com/vc/
2007-02-24T17:07:50  *** nerd_alert has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T17:07:59  <dstanek> creiht: cool i'm gonna try to be there
2007-02-24T17:07:59  <alect> heavy on the graphics though
2007-02-24T17:08:05  <alect> so perhaps best to look at it post-pycon ;)
2007-02-24T17:08:20  <creiht> dstanek: Very cool... should be very fun
2007-02-24T17:08:29  <ErikRose> Shiny :-D
2007-02-24T17:08:32  <alect> erik: interesting...i dunno whether i could convince my boss to let me come the US twice a year ;)
2007-02-24T17:08:37  *** _matt_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T17:08:42  <ErikRose> alect: Ah! Where are you based?
2007-02-24T17:08:56  <alect> sydney
2007-02-24T17:08:59  <alect> it is far
2007-02-24T17:09:07  <maelztrom> hrm
2007-02-24T17:09:11  <ErikRose> alect: I put up a lot of notes from it 2 years ago: http://wiki.cs.uiuc.edu/OOPSLA05/Erik+Rose
2007-02-24T17:09:19  <maelztrom> wonder if I could convince my boss to send me to europe for pycon
2007-02-24T17:09:23  <ErikRose> Glad you came for this! :-)
2007-02-24T17:09:38  <ErikRose> Hehe, "egg-okay"
2007-02-24T17:09:38  <alect> heh
2007-02-24T17:09:46  <creiht> The star schema presenter is awesome
2007-02-24T17:09:47  <ari> this guy is channelling lewis black
2007-02-24T17:09:50  <ErikRose> "Ipython: it's egg-okay"
2007-02-24T17:09:52  <dstanek> i was thinking eggo-k
2007-02-24T17:09:53  <alect> innnnnnnteresting
2007-02-24T17:09:56  <alect> ta erik
2007-02-24T17:09:57  <dstanek> getting me hurgry
2007-02-24T17:10:02  <ErikRose> np
2007-02-24T17:10:10  <pfein> anyone in expirmental econ?
2007-02-24T17:10:11  *** mwh has quit IRC
2007-02-24T17:10:12  *** Scotticus has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T17:10:19  <wam_> star schema is for what?
2007-02-24T17:10:28  <ErikRose> This nuts taste like feet. Odd.
2007-02-24T17:10:31  <ari> "data warehousing"
2007-02-24T17:10:36  <creiht> It's a database patter for doing reporting stuff
2007-02-24T17:10:44  <ErikRose> I am so glad I finally got around to building IPython
2007-02-24T17:10:45  <creiht> yeah.. usually called data warehousing
2007-02-24T17:10:55  <ErikRose> I figured if I sat here for half an hour, I'd *have* to do it. ;-)
2007-02-24T17:10:57  <creiht> basically denormalizing data
2007-02-24T17:11:00  <ari> ErikRose: are you running gentoo too? :)
2007-02-24T17:11:07  <ErikRose> hehe, no, but close: MacPorts
2007-02-24T17:11:11  <ari> almost
2007-02-24T17:11:16  *** _chris_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T17:11:29  <ErikRose> Gobby didn't build, btw.
2007-02-24T17:11:42  <ari> poor gobby
2007-02-24T17:12:00  <ari> i tried adding undo support to it once and then realized it's harder than i expected to do it right
2007-02-24T17:12:20  <ErikRose> Oh, gosh, Undo can be a bear if your design didn't take it into account.
2007-02-24T17:12:29  <ErikRose> It's hard enough in Cocoa, and Cocoa does it right.
2007-02-24T17:12:52  <ari> well undo for a simple editor is already built-in to the GtkSourceView widget
2007-02-24T17:12:55  *** romanoffi has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T17:12:56  <ErikRose> Actually, the trouble I had was that Apple didn't spec out what Undo was supposed to do.
2007-02-24T17:13:07  <ari> but once you add collaborative editing, it gets really tricky so they disabled it on purpose
2007-02-24T17:13:14  <ErikRose> Undo one edit action? Revert the whole field? ???
2007-02-24T17:13:15  <wam_> ipython seems to have implimented stuff that is so easily done in python itself...
2007-02-24T17:13:17  <ari> subethaedit does it mostly right
2007-02-24T17:13:27  * ErikRose cuddles with SEE.
2007-02-24T17:13:28  *** benbangert has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T17:13:39  <ErikRose> I'm taking notes in SEE if anybody wants to join.
2007-02-24T17:13:39  <wam_> eg profiles...  why not just import a task specific rc file as a module?
2007-02-24T17:13:51  <ErikRose> (i.e. I have a blank file open)
2007-02-24T17:13:57  <ari> i had thought about doing it in gobby with edits surrounded in numbered tags
2007-02-24T17:14:19  <jerry_s> "JarGone" -- Star Schema guy
2007-02-24T17:14:27  <ari> jerry_s: are you following this guy?
2007-02-24T17:14:38  <ari> he lost me at 3nf
2007-02-24T17:14:50  *** gldnspud has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T17:14:53  <benbangert> I think my brain just exploded
2007-02-24T17:14:58  <jerry_s> heh, I hear database and my eyes get that glazed look.  And I work on a database app daily.
2007-02-24T17:15:05  * MarkB1_backSoon is back.
2007-02-24T17:15:05  *** MarkB1_backSoon is now known as MarkB1
2007-02-24T17:15:11  <ari> he sounds like steve jobs or something
2007-02-24T17:15:11  <alect> the ipython talk any good?
2007-02-24T17:15:26  <ari> like he should be pushing a new phone, not a vague database concept
2007-02-24T17:15:27  <ErikRose> alect: Yes, for somebody like me who hasn't used it
2007-02-24T17:15:41  <alect> ah
2007-02-24T17:15:46  <ErikRose> ari, 3nf = third normal form
2007-02-24T17:15:47  <Scotticus> ErikRose:Which session are you in right now?
2007-02-24T17:15:51  <pfein> jerry_s: I got fed up with using a database so I threw it out.
2007-02-24T17:15:51  <ErikRose> ipython
2007-02-24T17:15:52  <alect> i use it already
2007-02-24T17:15:54  <ari> ErikRose: yes, i got that from his talk
2007-02-24T17:15:58  <jerry_s> He's talking about taking a Bad Dataset and making a good one.  I presume the rest of the talk is going to be about fuzzy matching data.
2007-02-24T17:15:59  <ErikRose> Ah. :-)
2007-02-24T17:16:04  <alect> didn't think there'd be that much useful
2007-02-24T17:16:22  <alect> the parallel ipython htalk has me intrigued though
2007-02-24T17:16:22  <ErikRose> It's been one of those things I've been meaning to get around to for years.
2007-02-24T17:16:30  <ari> i'm going to the next ipython talk
2007-02-24T17:16:30  <jerry_s> "Avoid all the SQL".  W00t!
2007-02-24T17:16:35  <pfein> alect: me too
2007-02-24T17:17:03  <ari> i swear he's come from the school of lewis black
2007-02-24T17:17:09  <benbangert> well, at least he's not boring ;)
2007-02-24T17:17:09  <pfein> jerry_s: SQLite is about as far as I go now.
2007-02-24T17:17:11  <jerry_s> It's a multiply-link list setup, I bet.  that way you can traverse through the data any way you want.
2007-02-24T17:17:15  <ari> he got the finger thing down and everything
2007-02-24T17:17:25  <benbangert> I'm exciting, and I have no idea why!
2007-02-24T17:17:26  * pfein wishes he could say the same about this talk
2007-02-24T17:17:30  <benbangert> errr, excited
2007-02-24T17:17:37  <ari> and mumbling and anger
2007-02-24T17:17:51  <jerry_s> pfein: Nice.  I've seen a lot of people using it with good results.  Never looked at it myself.
2007-02-24T17:18:17  <ari> i think this guy was heckling at the django open source talk
2007-02-24T17:18:35  <jerry_s> He should give public speaking lessons to the other presenters at this conference. :)
2007-02-24T17:18:46  *** rsf has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T17:18:55  <ari> jerry_s: sqlite is hot for anything you want a database for but don't really want to deal with a database server
2007-02-24T17:19:00  * pfein takes advantage of the boredom to fix small bugs.
2007-02-24T17:19:18  <ari> i thought it was pronounced tupple
2007-02-24T17:19:55  *** jkocherhans has quit IRC
2007-02-24T17:20:00  * ErikRose says toople
2007-02-24T17:20:10  <ari> most presenters do
2007-02-24T17:20:22  <pfein> we need a pronounciation BoF
2007-02-24T17:20:26  <alect> i say tupple (australia)
2007-02-24T17:20:29  <ErikRose> lol
2007-02-24T17:20:29  <jerry_s> heh, I like squeeeel, myself. :)
2007-02-24T17:20:30  <gtalvola> I'm in the ipython talk, and I can hear some loud ranting coming from the right
2007-02-24T17:20:40  <jerry_s> lol
2007-02-24T17:20:41  <ari> RSS == arse
2007-02-24T17:20:44  <alect> tomayto tomarto
2007-02-24T17:20:49  <ari> gtalvola: that's the star schema guy
2007-02-24T17:21:00  <pfein> XML == hell
2007-02-24T17:21:29  <four0four> star schema guy is confusing the hell out of me
2007-02-24T17:21:31  *** retracile has quit IRC
2007-02-24T17:21:32  <ari> i still think lewis black is so much better
2007-02-24T17:21:33  <ErikRose> PostgreSQL == "POST-gruh-sqkweel"
2007-02-24T17:21:38  <Scotticus> So is lib pronounced like 'bib' or 'bribe'?
2007-02-24T17:21:39  <gtalvola> it it being videotaped?  I need to watch it later to see what the ranting is all about
2007-02-24T17:21:43  <ari> postgresqlewjerjh
2007-02-24T17:21:50  *** shawn has quit IRC
2007-02-24T17:21:51  <ari> gtalvola: i think only mp3
2007-02-24T17:22:03  <ari> Scotticus: my boss pronounces it libe
2007-02-24T17:22:14  *** rkern has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T17:22:16  <cablehead> four0four: star schema dude is freakin' me out!
2007-02-24T17:22:18  <ari> four0four: if you figure out what he's talking about, let us know
2007-02-24T17:22:26  <creiht> haha
2007-02-24T17:22:28  <four0four> ari, the outlook is not good
2007-02-24T17:22:30  <jerry_s> "that lame-ass foreign key relationship".  I love this guy's view of databases.
2007-02-24T17:22:38  <creiht> Hopfully it will come together in the end
2007-02-24T17:22:43  <creiht> And you will go... wow that is cool
2007-02-24T17:22:45  <creiht> :)
2007-02-24T17:22:46  <ari> all i hear is database, schema, and lots of head shaking
2007-02-24T17:22:53  <benbangert> object thingies that were evil
2007-02-24T17:22:56  <creiht> Star schema is difficult to undersand at first
2007-02-24T17:23:01  <_matt_> I think he is assumming that people now understand what a star schema is
2007-02-24T17:23:02  <four0four> ari, can you hear me weeping softly
2007-02-24T17:23:08  <ari> with his song?
2007-02-24T17:23:11  <creiht> But once you get it is very simple, and elelgant
2007-02-24T17:23:19  * ErikRose is a zsh fan these days.
2007-02-24T17:23:23  <ari> creiht: it doesn't help that none of us know what star schema is
2007-02-24T17:23:28  <creiht> yeah I know
2007-02-24T17:23:32  <creiht> I was just thinking
2007-02-24T17:23:38  <_matt_> He tried to explain it quickly at the start....
2007-02-24T17:23:40  <creiht> That he should have explained it a little better
2007-02-24T17:23:42  <four0four> I think I got lost and wound up in an infomercial
2007-02-24T17:23:47  <ari> _matt_: i lost him before that
2007-02-24T17:23:50  <creiht> The basic problem is
2007-02-24T17:23:54  <creiht> You want to do a report
2007-02-24T17:23:56  <ari> four0four: i feel like i'm in a motivational session
2007-02-24T17:24:07  <creiht> But that report requires aggregation of all types of data points
2007-02-24T17:24:07  <benbangert> he said its simple, you guys must be java programmers
2007-02-24T17:24:08  <ari> creiht: well, i got the excel + shitload of data
2007-02-24T17:24:18  <four0four> ari, he very good at the motivational bit
2007-02-24T17:24:20  <ari> but what's with all these random terms for rows and columns
2007-02-24T17:24:25  <ari> four0four: more like demotivational
2007-02-24T17:24:26  <creiht> So if you just had the data in a relational database
2007-02-24T17:24:26  <four0four> ari, I really WANT to understand it now
2007-02-24T17:24:30  <creiht> The query would be huge
2007-02-24T17:24:37  <four0four> ari, its just a shame I dont
2007-02-24T17:24:38  <creiht> And usually rather complex
2007-02-24T17:24:41  <creiht> and take forever to run
2007-02-24T17:24:43  <ari> creiht: so he's saying this doesn't actually represent anything in a database?
2007-02-24T17:24:48  <Scotticus> Did anyone go to the game dev clinic last night?  Was it any good?
2007-02-24T17:24:52  <creiht> I'm getting there :)
2007-02-24T17:24:52  <_matt_> The confusing thing to me is I don't get the point he is trying to make....
2007-02-24T17:24:57  <ari> oh sorry
2007-02-24T17:25:07  <ari> _matt_: python good, databases bad, excel bad
2007-02-24T17:25:08  <crimsonK> a Lewis Black-like motivational session?  interesting...
2007-02-24T17:25:08  <creiht> So the basic idea is to denormalize the data
2007-02-24T17:25:11  <_matt_> How much better python is than java?
2007-02-24T17:25:16  <ari> crimsonK: he's doing it badly
2007-02-24T17:25:30  <creiht> Star schema is a pattern for that denormalization
2007-02-24T17:25:43  <creiht> That suddnely makes your report queries simple, and fast
2007-02-24T17:25:44  <_matt_> Well it's sorta wierd to imply that dbs are bad when he's talking about a star schema....
2007-02-24T17:25:54  <ari> but it's not really a query at all?
2007-02-24T17:25:55  <_matt_> creiht:yes
2007-02-24T17:26:05  <_matt_> star schema is to allow for easy reporting
2007-02-24T17:26:07  *** _chris_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T17:26:11  <_matt_> (crystal and that fun stuff)
2007-02-24T17:26:20  <creiht> yup
2007-02-24T17:26:46  <four0four> I think if you listen to him long enough, your brain melts, you become an idiot savant, and it suddenly becomes easy to look at large sets of data and see the face of god
2007-02-24T17:26:47  <creiht> So usuallty you have a main thing that you want to report about (the dimension)
2007-02-24T17:26:52  <four0four> is that what the star schema is?
2007-02-24T17:27:04  <jerry_s> yeah, his idea is to rip it out of the database, then work with it in python.  In Python, with a few simple classes, you can fuzzy match stuff together.  SQL  is very bad at "sort of" matching things.
2007-02-24T17:27:06  *** kn6xq has quit IRC
2007-02-24T17:27:27  <ari> i see
2007-02-24T17:27:35  <Scotticus> four0four:  You mean its sort of like Lisp programming?
2007-02-24T17:27:51  <creiht> Then there are attributes that are called facts (things like time)
2007-02-24T17:27:53  <_matt_> this might be useful http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_schema
2007-02-24T17:27:56  <four0four> Scotticus, yes, but not as user friendly
2007-02-24T17:27:56  <ari> do you guys in ipython feel like you're missing out?
2007-02-24T17:28:02  <ari> _matt_: i tried reading that beforehand
2007-02-24T17:28:04  <creiht> _matt_: Good call...
2007-02-24T17:28:08  <ErikRose> Nah, I'm having fun.
2007-02-24T17:28:16  <_matt_> wow going fast now
2007-02-24T17:28:16  <jerry_s> the measure he is talking about, is his "confidence" that he actually has a match.
2007-02-24T17:28:21  <DuncF> ari: nope
2007-02-24T17:28:22  <ErikRose> It's like if Python met bash.
2007-02-24T17:28:37  <creiht> hrmmm... so he is doing it totally in Python
2007-02-24T17:28:41  <creiht> Not using a DB
2007-02-24T17:28:43  <ari> yes
2007-02-24T17:28:49  <creiht> So I find that part a bit odd :)
2007-02-24T17:28:59  <alect> hmmm, i was just in the toilet and on my way out realised there was a lady cleaning them
2007-02-24T17:29:03  <creiht> That is probably fine for smaller data sets
2007-02-24T17:29:07  <alect> whoops
2007-02-24T17:29:12  <ari> wait so all he's doing is summing up a bunch of things by project?
2007-02-24T17:29:17  <_matt_> yes
2007-02-24T17:29:18  <cablehead> hrm, i'd like to see him crunch a couple of hundred million rows this way
2007-02-24T17:29:27  <Scotticus> iPython -- looks like an option for folks who don't think that python provides enough instant gratification wrt results.
2007-02-24T17:29:29  <creiht> cablehead: exactly
2007-02-24T17:29:33  <_matt_> cablehead: that's what star schemas are usually for....
2007-02-24T17:29:41  <creiht> Though you can apply the same patterns in a DB and it is very nice
2007-02-24T17:29:43  <benbangert> cablehead: as long as you have the physical ram for it, it should be decent still
2007-02-24T17:29:44  <_matt_> So this talk is sorta weird in that way
2007-02-24T17:29:47  *** _chris_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T17:30:05  <_matt_> ben: LOTs of ram...
2007-02-24T17:30:09  <benbangert> hmm
2007-02-24T17:30:15  <ari> i sort of feel like i've done this before, but without calling it star schema
2007-02-24T17:30:17  <benbangert> those two for statements should've used iteritems()
2007-02-24T17:30:30  <ari> benbangert: incompatible with py3k!
2007-02-24T17:30:36  <dijix> yea, I think I'm going to have to start using IPython
2007-02-24T17:30:51  <grover2> ipython impressive
2007-02-24T17:30:54  <jerry_s> ipython rocks.  It works well for giving live demos.
2007-02-24T17:30:54  <_matt_> Speaking of which
2007-02-24T17:30:58  <gtalvola> i am definitely installing ipython asap
2007-02-24T17:30:59  <creiht> ipython rocks
2007-02-24T17:31:01  <_matt_> too bad Guido isn't more like this guy...
2007-02-24T17:31:21  <crimsonK> too bad I can't expect work to let me use ipython
2007-02-24T17:31:29  <creiht> I wonder if he persists the data, or just runs the ETL every time
2007-02-24T17:31:34  <four0four> did that slide actually say "One true view of truth"
2007-02-24T17:31:42  <_matt_> it looks like a ONE time things for him
2007-02-24T17:31:43  *** T1 has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T17:31:46  <dijix> why not, crimsonK?
2007-02-24T17:31:51  <_matt_> normally you want to drill into reports....
2007-02-24T17:31:52  * ari cries
2007-02-24T17:32:02  * four0four passes ari a tissue
2007-02-24T17:32:08  <creiht> blech
2007-02-24T17:32:15  <wam_> ultraTB is also slick for building colorized/data pulled out tracebacks
2007-02-24T17:32:27  <ari> holy god
2007-02-24T17:33:03  <wam_> ari, we need more context
2007-02-24T17:33:05  <_matt_> Whoops Ben I stand corrected
2007-02-24T17:33:34  <_matt_> The dimension tables are small
2007-02-24T17:33:44  <_matt_> but the fact tables are huge
2007-02-24T17:33:48  <_matt_> millions of rows.....
2007-02-24T17:33:49  <ari> i'm going to need a decontamination from this
2007-02-24T17:34:11  <four0four> im going to need counselling
2007-02-24T17:34:21  *** retracile has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T17:34:41  <ari> Vertica is a company based around column-based
2007-02-24T17:34:49  <benbangert> _matt_: yea... even with millions of objects, I'd think it should still be fine for a rather good sized dataset
2007-02-24T17:34:53  <_matt_> monetdb is another
2007-02-24T17:35:02  <benbangert> maybe stackless could help out with some of it ;)
2007-02-24T17:35:15  <_matt_> Ben: I'm still skeptical
2007-02-24T17:35:15  <creiht> monetdb is pretty cool for this type of stuff
2007-02-24T17:35:24  <ari> but it's not a brand name!
2007-02-24T17:35:30  <creiht> I just with their python docs were better
2007-02-24T17:35:31  <_matt_> facts can have lots of columns....
2007-02-24T17:35:52  <_matt_> If you need to aggregate these rows, you need to suck a lot of them in....
2007-02-24T17:36:01  <creiht> _matt_: While that is true, you are usually only woried about a certain column for the actual report
2007-02-24T17:36:25  *** rkern has quit IRC
2007-02-24T17:36:29  <creiht> Another interesting technology is pytables
2007-02-24T17:36:29  <dijix> ari: similar to kdb?
2007-02-24T17:36:30  *** tpollari has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T17:36:34  <creiht> dijix: yes
2007-02-24T17:36:43  <jerry_s> ipython next for me
2007-02-24T17:36:45  <creiht> kdb is the pinnacle
2007-02-24T17:36:50  <creiht> of column db's
2007-02-24T17:36:57  *** rsf has quit IRC
2007-02-24T17:37:14  <creiht> Though they refuse to work with you unless you are a huge financial instituition
2007-02-24T17:37:30  <dijix> EWT does a lot of work with kdb
2007-02-24T17:38:13  <creiht> I really like pytables a lot, but requires you to think a bit differntly
2007-02-24T17:38:24  *** cablehead has quit IRC
2007-02-24T17:38:49  <dstanek> pytables?
2007-02-24T17:38:54  *** Veloso has quit IRC
2007-02-24T17:39:05  *** nerd_alert has quit IRC
2007-02-24T17:39:09  <dstanek> cool that looks interesting
2007-02-24T17:39:15  <creiht> dstanek: http://www.pytables.org/moin
2007-02-24T17:39:28  <creiht> I was using it to process the Netflix-prize data
2007-02-24T17:39:32  *** mwh has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T17:39:32  <creiht> It was really awesome
2007-02-24T17:39:37  *** ErikRose has quit IRC
2007-02-24T17:40:17  *** DuncF has quit IRC
2007-02-24T17:40:26  *** Tv has quit IRC
2007-02-24T17:40:35  *** T1 is now known as Tv
2007-02-24T17:40:51  *** Six`oh`six has quit IRC
2007-02-24T17:41:09  *** gldnspud has quit IRC
2007-02-24T17:42:29  *** DuncF has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T17:42:51  *** retracile has quit IRC
2007-02-24T17:42:59  *** retracile has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T17:43:34  *** shawn has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T17:44:06  <wam_> Ok, just uploaded my notes...
2007-02-24T17:44:16  <wam_> http://wamber.net/static/PyCon-2007/
2007-02-24T17:44:22  *** rkern has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T17:44:34  *** ErikRose has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T17:46:05  *** vslashg has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T17:46:54  <ari> dijix: c-store
2007-02-24T17:48:53  *** nerd_alert has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T17:48:55  <wam_> anyone else in security talk?
2007-02-24T17:49:09  <creiht> raises hand
2007-02-24T17:49:10  <benbangert> yup
2007-02-24T17:49:24  <wam_> I missed a good part of it I seem.
2007-02-24T17:50:32  *** Scotticus has quit IRC
2007-02-24T17:50:32  <dijix> ari: looks interesting
2007-02-24T17:50:49  *** Scotticus has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T17:51:11  <pfein> parallel ipython is packed
2007-02-24T17:51:26  <alect> any good?
2007-02-24T17:51:35  <alect> security talk is interesting
2007-02-24T17:51:39  <alect> but definitely not packed :)
2007-02-24T17:51:49  *** dydimust` has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T17:52:04  <Tv> pfein: hey pfein
2007-02-24T17:52:10  * Tv resends privmsg
2007-02-24T17:52:22  * MarkB1 is away: Gone away for now.
2007-02-24T17:52:22  *** MarkB1 is now known as MarkB1_backSoon
2007-02-24T17:52:42  *** dydimustk has quit IRC
2007-02-24T17:53:12  <ErikRose> This Lisp session in BT3 is awesome.
2007-02-24T17:53:23  <ErikRose> I don't know when he had a chance to throw this together.
2007-02-24T17:53:41  <_matt_> is lisp crowded?
2007-02-24T17:53:46  <Tv> pfein: did you get the privmsg?
2007-02-24T17:53:47  <ErikRose> Yep
2007-02-24T17:53:54  <Tv> ErikRose: is that Michael Salib talking?
2007-02-24T17:53:58  <mwh> msalib++
2007-02-24T17:53:58  <ErikRose> Well, people are standing, but there's lots of room to sit.
2007-02-24T17:54:00  <ErikRose> Tv: yes
2007-02-24T17:54:05  <Tv> ErikRose: he's *good*
2007-02-24T17:54:06  <ari> parallel python has a chance to be interesting
2007-02-24T17:54:11  <ErikRose> Come and whack these people over the head till they sit down.
2007-02-24T17:54:16  <rkern> ari: wait for the demos.
2007-02-24T17:54:22  * ari waits patiently
2007-02-24T17:54:34  <ErikRose> Doing an ORM as a macro is a Good Idea.
2007-02-24T17:54:35  <_matt_> parallel slides are very dense...
2007-02-24T17:54:48  <Tv> _matt_: scientists, not speakers ;)
2007-02-24T17:54:49  <ari> _matt_: this is the problem i had with the star schema guy
2007-02-24T17:55:10  <_matt_> But star schema guy *was* a good speaker...
2007-02-24T17:55:14  <ari> well
2007-02-24T17:55:22  <_matt_> He just didn't explain what he really was talking about
2007-02-24T17:55:34  <ari> right
2007-02-24T17:55:39  <_matt_> (I guess his presentation was good, but his content could be improved)
2007-02-24T17:55:53  <pfein> is this ipython stuff open source?
2007-02-24T17:56:00  <creiht> It was also a lot to pack in a short period of time
2007-02-24T17:56:02  <rkern> pfein: http://ipython.scipy.org
2007-02-24T17:56:03  <creiht> pfein: yes
2007-02-24T17:56:04  <_matt_> not clear yet
2007-02-24T17:56:06  <ari> after that talk i felt like i just got a lobotomy and liked it
2007-02-24T17:56:16  *** dijix has quit IRC
2007-02-24T17:56:18  <ari> ipython itself sure, i don't know about the parallel stuff
2007-02-24T17:56:24  <rkern> ari: it is.
2007-02-24T17:56:27  <mwh> anyone in brett's talk?
2007-02-24T17:56:29  <_matt_> ari: were you inspired to do a star schema?
2007-02-24T17:56:32  <benbangert> yea
2007-02-24T17:56:39  <mwh> how goes?
2007-02-24T17:56:46  <ari> _matt_: i.. think so
2007-02-24T17:56:49  <_matt_> parallel stuff is in ipython1
2007-02-24T17:56:51  <benbangert> its good, I've had more than a few uses for a safe python environment
2007-02-24T17:56:52  *** dijix has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T17:56:54  <_matt_> so it is open source
2007-02-24T17:57:25  <maelztrom> What's the most primitive environment python currently runs on?
2007-02-24T17:57:46  <creiht> Palm OS?
2007-02-24T17:57:48  <ari> hm this is weird
2007-02-24T17:57:49  <maelztrom> not primitive as in age...but..basic...will python run without a normal filesystem ?
2007-02-24T17:57:51  <_matt_> windows? ;)
2007-02-24T17:57:52  *** romanoffi has quit IRC
2007-02-24T17:57:53  <ari> creiht: it runs on palm?
2007-02-24T17:57:56  <Scotticus> maelztrom: Southern Mississippi, I believe.
2007-02-24T17:58:02  <creiht> well I know 1.5 does
2007-02-24T17:58:05  <philiKON> it runs on a nokia 60 series
2007-02-24T17:58:05  <maelztrom> I've seen python run on cellphones
2007-02-24T17:58:07  <creiht> not sure if there is a newer port
2007-02-24T17:58:08  <ari> maelztrom: it runs on olpc :)
2007-02-24T17:58:09  <maelztrom> laugh Scotticus
2007-02-24T17:58:16  <maelztrom> aah, good point ari
2007-02-24T17:58:31  <four0four> its running on the 3360 in mi pocket
2007-02-24T17:58:33  <mwh> philiKON: are you here?
2007-02-24T17:58:37  <ari> but you could consider jffs2 a "normal" filesystem
2007-02-24T17:58:40  <philiKON> mwh: unfortuantely i'm not
2007-02-24T17:58:48  <philiKON> python also runs on embedded systems like http://www.areasx.com/index.php?D=1&id=8173&lang_switch=ENG
2007-02-24T17:59:04  <mwh> philiKON: didn't think i'd missed you
2007-02-24T17:59:09  <gps> python can run without a fs but may require some porting depending on the platform
2007-02-24T17:59:17  <philiKON> mwh: i wish i woulda come
2007-02-24T17:59:22  <philiKON> i even had the tiime! (almost)
2007-02-24T17:59:23  <maelztrom> just him demoing this ipython system
2007-02-24T17:59:38  <maelztrom> all of the hpc work I'm familiar with runs on multiprocessor systems without any drives whatsoever, and absurdly hihgspeed networks
2007-02-24T17:59:44  <Tv> maelztrom: I can python on my Symbian Series60 phone..
2007-02-24T18:00:00  <mwh> Tv: but do you?
2007-02-24T18:00:07  <Tv> err, s/can/have/
2007-02-24T18:00:13  <maelztrom> not a 'computer' in any normal sense of the word--the newest ones don't even have regular filesystem semantics...just a sort of weird object store
2007-02-24T18:00:15  <Tv> maelztrom: I know of hacks that replace /sbin/init with python
2007-02-24T18:00:19  <mwh> do you use it at all
2007-02-24T18:00:20  <mwh> ?
2007-02-24T18:00:23  <Tv> mwh: nope
2007-02-24T18:00:29  <Tv> mwh: it's just too limited and silly
2007-02-24T18:00:29  <mwh> me neither
2007-02-24T18:00:29  <ari> Tv: the olpc init system is python..
2007-02-24T18:00:36  <Tv> mwh: I'm really looking at OpenMoko
2007-02-24T18:00:41  *** _chris_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T18:00:42  <mwh> i just have a heavy crappy phone i don't like
2007-02-24T18:00:46  <mwh> (with python on it)
2007-02-24T18:00:50  <Tv> ari: ooh they did that at init level, cool
2007-02-24T18:00:59  <gps> maelztrom: just fixup the import code to know how to read that store for modules
2007-02-24T18:01:02  <maelztrom> init with python...that sounds fun
2007-02-24T18:01:11  <ari> i'm kind of surprised upstart isn't python
2007-02-24T18:01:19  <Tv> ari: reliability..
2007-02-24T18:01:34  <ari> oh yeah XO doesn't need to be reliable :)
2007-02-24T18:01:36  <Tv> you don't want init to alloc any ram during runtime if you can avoid it in any way
2007-02-24T18:01:44  <gps> python and such are too large and dynamically linked to other big things to reliably use for init
2007-02-24T18:01:53  <gps> yes it can work but isn't advisable
2007-02-24T18:02:14  *** tpollari has quit IRC
2007-02-24T18:02:40  <ari> hm maybe it's not python
2007-02-24T18:03:08  *** kamalgill has quit IRC
2007-02-24T18:03:20  <maelztrom> python network layer supports stacks that aren't ip based?
2007-02-24T18:03:21  *** dijix has quit IRC
2007-02-24T18:03:32  <pfein> wow, this is HOTTTT
2007-02-24T18:04:06  <ari> maelztrom: unix sockets?
2007-02-24T18:04:07  <gps> bsd socket api that it uses can do non-ip if your os supports it
2007-02-24T18:04:31  *** dijix has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T18:04:43  *** Scotticus has quit IRC
2007-02-24T18:05:47  *** dydimust` is now known as dydimustk
2007-02-24T18:06:00  <ari> what's he controlling on his laptop?
2007-02-24T18:06:27  <maelztrom> not even sockets really ari--more like some of the weird stuff they run over infiniband
2007-02-24T18:07:14  *** creiht has quit IRC
2007-02-24T18:07:20  *** DuncF has quit IRC
2007-02-24T18:07:47  <ari> i wish i could think of a way i could use this
2007-02-24T18:08:06  <wam_> anyone take good notes of the distributed ipython talk?
2007-02-24T18:08:24  <ari> he seems to have a screencast video
2007-02-24T18:08:36  <ari> maybe he'll publish it
2007-02-24T18:08:40  <wam_> yeah, but the narrative is more important...
2007-02-24T18:08:51  <ari> i think all talks are recorded
2007-02-24T18:08:55  *** vslashg has quit IRC
2007-02-24T18:08:56  <dijix> it's being filmed
2007-02-24T18:09:19  <rkern> ari: it's best if you have an embarassingly parallel problem
2007-02-24T18:09:21  <ari> someone should ask about failover
2007-02-24T18:09:31  <ari> rkern: i do, but not this kind of parallel
2007-02-24T18:09:33  <dstanek> i hope the recordings this year will be useful
2007-02-24T18:09:44  <dstanek> in the past you could not understand them
2007-02-24T18:10:35  <wam_> what is the communication channel for the agents?
2007-02-24T18:10:56  *** DuncF has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T18:11:04  <Tv> WTF twisted bof overlaps lightning talks?
2007-02-24T18:11:05  <ari> twisted and pickle
2007-02-24T18:11:07  <Tv> radix: WTF?
2007-02-24T18:11:22  <rkern> wam_: one of several potential protocols using Twisted
2007-02-24T18:11:24  <Tv> who picked the slot?
2007-02-24T18:11:33  <ari> is pickle a protocol though
2007-02-24T18:11:42  <ari> er
2007-02-24T18:11:44  <ari> twisted
2007-02-24T18:11:49  <ari> oh the RPC protocol
2007-02-24T18:12:03  <wam_> ok... twisted supports ssh, so that could be the communication proto?
2007-02-24T18:12:20  <rkern> One protocol uses Twisted's PB, one is a custom protocol written by Brian
2007-02-24T18:12:26  <ari> someone should ask
2007-02-24T18:13:06  *** Catspaw has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T18:13:57  <mwh> -ENOMOSHE
2007-02-24T18:14:15  <ari> hm this does task scheduling too?
2007-02-24T18:15:05  <ari> jesus
2007-02-24T18:15:19  <dstanek> what do you think about the security talk?
2007-02-24T18:15:25  <pfein> ari: yeah, this is just awesome
2007-02-24T18:15:45  <ari> well that answered my question
2007-02-24T18:15:52  <wam_> the talk was good...  I missed just a bit, but enough to get his technique for cutting out the dangerous parts
2007-02-24T18:16:03  <wam_> the security talk that is
2007-02-24T18:17:08  <benbangert> this Program Transformation Tool talk looks interesting
2007-02-24T18:17:11  <benbangert> not so much about Py3k
2007-02-24T18:17:21  <benbangert> as about dealing with the abstract syntax tree and code transformation
2007-02-24T18:17:21  <dstanek> wam_: does he have a plan to implement the model?
2007-02-24T18:17:45  *** _chris_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T18:17:56  <wam_> yeah, he has a lot done.
2007-02-24T18:17:57  *** _chris_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T18:18:08  <wam_> he's neutered the builtins, has rewritten import....
2007-02-24T18:18:25  <wam_> he still needs to embedded an interpretter into something
2007-02-24T18:18:51  *** Catspaw has quit IRC
2007-02-24T18:19:43  <wam_> the parrallel guy is cutting into ctypes
2007-02-24T18:19:49  <ari> it's worth it
2007-02-24T18:20:15  *** nerd_alert has quit IRC
2007-02-24T18:20:37  *** Catspaw has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T18:22:32  <dijix> I think I'm going to go have a beer
2007-02-24T18:23:01  <wam_> ctypes for me...
2007-02-24T18:23:02  <ari> i still have 40 minutes on my battery
2007-02-24T18:23:13  <ari> wtf
2007-02-24T18:23:23  *** romanoffi has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T18:23:25  *** _chris_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T18:23:34  *** rkern has quit IRC
2007-02-24T18:24:00  <ari> olpc-python?
2007-02-24T18:27:17  <coderanger_> hmm?
2007-02-24T18:28:04  *** edbrannin has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T18:28:47  <ari> apparently olpc has their own interpreter he just invented
2007-02-24T18:28:47  *** _chris_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T18:28:49  *** nerd_alert has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T18:29:40  *** greenfngrs has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T18:31:24  *** creiht has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T18:32:59  <wam_> anyone know what 'togl' is?
2007-02-24T18:33:26  <dijix> wam_: tk widget for openGL rendering
2007-02-24T18:34:00  *** edbrannin has quit IRC
2007-02-24T18:34:07  *** edbrannin has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T18:36:09  <dstanek> creiht: the guys from this morning scalable Python talk might not be able to make the open space
2007-02-24T18:36:25  <creiht> doh
2007-02-24T18:36:41  <creiht> The presenters, or the guys that made the bof?
2007-02-24T18:37:35  <dstanek> no - they were gonna put one up but they saw the "make my website faster one"
2007-02-24T18:37:50  <creiht> hehe
2007-02-24T18:38:01  <dstanek> when they get back from dinner i hope to sit down with them as sort of an ad hoc open space
2007-02-24T18:38:12  <creiht> Well I think there will be plenty of people there with experience in that area
2007-02-24T18:39:02  <dstanek> i am hoping so
2007-02-24T18:39:52  <creiht> I might be running just a tad late from dinner, but I will be there as soon as I get back
2007-02-24T18:40:40  <four0four> anyone have any notes from scalable python this morning?
2007-02-24T18:40:41  <jerry_s> hmm... should we move it later?
2007-02-24T18:40:42  *** _matt_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T18:40:57  <jerry_s> I think there was room after 8:30pm
2007-02-24T18:41:11  <creiht> There were not many times available
2007-02-24T18:41:18  <ari> four0four: the web scaling?
2007-02-24T18:41:21  <jerry_s> yeah
2007-02-24T18:41:26  <jerry_s> I'll go check.
2007-02-24T18:41:27  <four0four> ari, yip
2007-02-24T18:41:27  <dstanek> we can meet somewhere else if need be
2007-02-24T18:41:33  <ari> it didn't really have much to do with python
2007-02-24T18:41:35  <creiht> Though I would bet if there is enough intrest we could meet together
2007-02-24T18:41:39  <dstanek> the bar, the lobby, etc.
2007-02-24T18:41:44  <creiht> jerry_s: I'm sitting right next to it :)
2007-02-24T18:42:07  <jerry_s> heh, cool.  Is there any space later in the evening?
2007-02-24T18:42:19  <ari> four0four: http://www.polimetrix.com/pycon/slides/
2007-02-24T18:42:29  <four0four> ari, thanks :)
2007-02-24T18:42:48  <ari> unfortunately it's S5
2007-02-24T18:43:05  <creiht> It's hard to tell, as some cards are split between the time slots
2007-02-24T18:43:10  <ari> oh you can turn the presentation part off
2007-02-24T18:43:56  <creiht> reguardless we will find space somewhere :)
2007-02-24T18:44:02  <creiht> If there is enough intrest
2007-02-24T18:44:09  *** Six`oh`six has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T18:44:30  <dstanek> make sure you post it on the board so i can find you guys
2007-02-24T18:44:46  <jerry_s> yeah, we'll write it on the card.
2007-02-24T18:44:56  <creiht> dstanek: will do... right now it is currently between the django and distributed bof
2007-02-24T18:44:57  *** DuncF has quit IRC
2007-02-24T18:45:29  <benbangert> creiht: are those bof's during the lightning talks?
2007-02-24T18:45:44  <creiht> benbangert: After dinner
2007-02-24T18:45:48  <benbangert> ahh
2007-02-24T18:45:56  <Tv> four0four: the scalability talk today was just baaad, mmkay?
2007-02-24T18:46:05  *** jamwt has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T18:46:15  <Tv> four0four: it was all one database let's try to optimize a bit and let's not forget any sql indexes
2007-02-24T18:46:39  <Tv> four0four: not really about how to make architectures scale, and not really about how to do the tricks of the trade nicely in python
2007-02-24T18:46:46  <Tv> four0four: the bof will hopefully be nicer
2007-02-24T18:47:41  *** crimsonK has left #pycon
2007-02-24T18:47:55  <coderanger_> Does the hotel have a printer somewhere?
2007-02-24T18:48:05  *** creiht has quit IRC
2007-02-24T18:48:21  <dijix> I'm sure in the business center
2007-02-24T18:49:01  <dijix> oka.. it just got real cold
2007-02-24T18:49:16  *** nerd_alert has quit IRC
2007-02-24T18:49:24  *** dand has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T18:49:35  *** greenfngrs has quit IRC
2007-02-24T18:49:53  <wam_> ok, notes updated with ipython, securing python, and ctypes presos at http://wamber.net/static/PyCon-2007/
2007-02-24T18:50:01  *** _chris_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T18:50:22  <jamwt> lol.. I see our talk was well-reviewed
2007-02-24T18:50:33  <wam_> which talk jam?
2007-02-24T18:50:47  <jamwt> the scaling talk
2007-02-24T18:51:00  <Six`oh`six> lighting talks next, yes?
2007-02-24T18:51:12  <jamwt> I hear there is a BOF later tonight.. we'd be happy to participate.
2007-02-24T18:51:22  *** DuncF has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T18:51:26  <jamwt> as I said, we'd be happy to talk with people about more advanced techniques
2007-02-24T18:51:36  <jamwt> but there just simply wasn't time
2007-02-24T18:52:10  <Six`oh`six> you guys should definitely come. it's after the Django BoF
2007-02-24T18:52:22  <Six`oh`six> i think it will be a horror story swap
2007-02-24T18:52:52  *** mwh has quit IRC
2007-02-24T18:54:08  *** __jt__ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T18:57:22  *** creiht has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T18:58:20  *** shawn has quit IRC
2007-02-24T18:58:52  <wam_> Luca from Nokia around?
2007-02-24T18:59:08  *** rkern has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T18:59:21  *** mwh has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T18:59:36  *** four0four has quit IRC
2007-02-24T18:59:52  *** sod has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T18:59:52  *** jtauber has quit IRC
2007-02-24T19:00:05  *** gldnspud has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T19:00:05  <wam_> Should be ZWsgiDjangoGears
2007-02-24T19:00:28  <dstanek> i'm sold
2007-02-24T19:00:29  <mwh> with mod_ in front
2007-02-24T19:00:55  <benbangert> all demos in here should really be on both screens
2007-02-24T19:01:08  <benbangert> having them go back and forth means you miss half the visuals for the talks
2007-02-24T19:01:14  <dijix> they need to kill the lights above the screens
2007-02-24T19:02:01  <gps> <-- sat in middle this time
2007-02-24T19:02:08  *** ErikRose has quit IRC
2007-02-24T19:02:19  <Tv> wam_: It's not Luca, it's Jukka.
2007-02-24T19:02:25  *** rmunn has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T19:02:26  *** stati1 has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T19:02:32  <Tv> benbangert: sit in the middle
2007-02-24T19:02:46  <stati1> radix, is the twisted bof still happening now?
2007-02-24T19:02:55  *** efm has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T19:03:17  <Tv> stati1: haven't seen him IRL or IRC in a long time
2007-02-24T19:03:38  <stati1> ta
2007-02-24T19:04:03  <benbangert> Tv: I'm rather established here now, its impossible to move
2007-02-24T19:04:18  *** vslashg has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T19:04:22  *** vslashg is now known as Veloso
2007-02-24T19:04:42  <Tv> benbangert: your bad planning ;)
2007-02-24T19:04:47  *** ErikRose has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T19:04:52  *** stati1 has left #pycon
2007-02-24T19:05:02  <philiKON> benbangert: cool summary of the web panel, btw
2007-02-24T19:05:26  <benbangert> Tv: I prefer to blame the bizarre inability to display their slides on both screens at once ;)
2007-02-24T19:05:39  <gps> they did it during guidos
2007-02-24T19:05:45  *** thatch has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T19:05:47  <benbangert> gps: exactly!
2007-02-24T19:05:54  <philiKON> benbangert: uh, i meant, cool comments *on* the web panel
2007-02-24T19:05:56  <philiKON> i read summaries :)
2007-02-24T19:06:01  <benbangert> philiKON: thanks, would've been nice if we had more time...
2007-02-24T19:06:15  <philiKON> yes, it seemed so
2007-02-24T19:06:25  <philiKON> weren't that many questions
2007-02-24T19:06:28  *** cablehead has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T19:06:54  <DuncF> benbangert: the downside of that is the audience sitting around while folk plug and unplug laptops
2007-02-24T19:07:18  *** dydimustk has quit IRC
2007-02-24T19:07:40  <benbangert> DuncF: yup...
2007-02-24T19:08:13  <benbangert> unless they had a switcher... and could hook up both at once and toggle the master output
2007-02-24T19:08:15  <creiht> Maybe we need a scaling video projectors talk
2007-02-24T19:08:44  <mwh> moshe gave a lightning talk on how to give a bad lightning talk at europython
2007-02-24T19:08:49  <mwh> it was pretty funny
2007-02-24T19:09:00  <jerry_s> heh, that would have been cool to see
2007-02-24T19:09:23  <gps> give that one while hung over for added effect
2007-02-24T19:09:57  <benbangert> sweet, more CrashingThings
2007-02-24T19:10:19  <ErikRose> Armies of them?
2007-02-24T19:10:30  <philiKON> mwh: i also liked harald armin massa's lightning talk about thing speople do during your talks
2007-02-24T19:10:47  <mwh> philiKON: yes, that was very funny
2007-02-24T19:11:12  <mwh> "during your talk, your audience will have implemented THREE NEW WEB FRAMEWORKS!"
2007-02-24T19:11:17  <philiKON> right
2007-02-24T19:11:17  <ErikRose> lol
2007-02-24T19:11:26  *** nerd_alert has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T19:11:49  <gps> haha
2007-02-24T19:12:08  <gps> give a bad talk and audience productivity increases ;)
2007-02-24T19:12:37  <mwh> just seeing a harald lightning talk is worth paying the entrance fee for europython
2007-02-24T19:13:01  <mwh> (got to start plugging)
2007-02-24T19:14:22  * ErikRose puts more stuff up on the notes page.
2007-02-24T19:14:38  <benbangert> where's europython this year?
2007-02-24T19:14:48  <creiht> Europe?
2007-02-24T19:14:55  <benbangert> sigh
2007-02-24T19:15:03  <philiKON> lithuania
2007-02-24T19:15:19  <benbangert> not at the accelerator?
2007-02-24T19:15:24  <mwh> no
2007-02-24T19:15:26  <philiKON> no, not at cern
2007-02-24T19:15:30  <efm> I heard there's going to be a combined ruby/python conference in Poland this year as well
2007-02-24T19:15:33  <philiKON> thank god a cheap country!
2007-02-24T19:15:33  <mwh> that was a one year only special
2007-02-24T19:15:53  <philiKON> after 2 years of sweden and 1 year of switzerland
2007-02-24T19:16:03  <philiKON> finally cheap booze
2007-02-24T19:16:10  <mwh> yes
2007-02-24T19:16:41  <benbangert> sweet, that sounds rather tempting
2007-02-24T19:16:43  <philiKON> in sweden it was horrible. on sundays, only state-owned liquor stores would sell alcohol, 3.5% max or whatever
2007-02-24T19:16:58  <philiKON> and of course, everything had a 25% VAT
2007-02-24T19:17:12  <mwh> i've only been to vilnius in november, i expect july to be much nicer
2007-02-24T19:17:24  <philiKON> never been to any of the baltic states
2007-02-24T19:17:28  <philiKON> looking forward to it
2007-02-24T19:17:40  <gps> heh sweden sunday sounds like utah on all days
2007-02-24T19:17:45  <mwh> we really really need to start "doing stuff"
2007-02-24T19:18:13  *** shawn has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T19:18:22  * philiKON strikes utah from the list of places to live at
2007-02-24T19:18:33  <mwh> philiKON: who's the web track bod this year?
2007-02-24T19:18:39  <philiKON> hm, dunno
2007-02-24T19:18:58  <philiKON> gee, if i wasn't going to have to prepare for my finals, i would volunteer
2007-02-24T19:19:36  <mwh> :/
2007-02-24T19:20:27  <philiKON> i might be up for chairing it at least for a day like last year, though
2007-02-24T19:20:55  <mwh> cool
2007-02-24T19:23:39  * mwh is close to expiring from hunger
2007-02-24T19:24:05  <gps> add sleep deprivation and count me in
2007-02-24T19:24:20  <benbangert> nap's help
2007-02-24T19:24:25  <benbangert> though the hunger is starting to hurt
2007-02-24T19:24:28  <mwh> hmm, i have hardly eaten anything today
2007-02-24T19:24:39  <mwh> somehow ended up in denny's at 4am though
2007-02-24T19:24:42  <benbangert> I think I feel my stomach eating my other organs
2007-02-24T19:24:43  * mwh --> stage
2007-02-24T19:24:54  <gps> i skipped the last 3 things but couldn't usefully nap.  ugh.
2007-02-24T19:24:54  <DuncF> mmmmm, sleeep
2007-02-24T19:24:57  <jerry_s> same here...  starving.
2007-02-24T19:24:58  <gps> woo stage!  wave!
2007-02-24T19:25:49  *** _matt_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T19:26:16  <creiht> yay!  Good prints!
2007-02-24T19:26:17  <creiht> :)
2007-02-24T19:26:21  <creiht> err lightning tlks
2007-02-24T19:26:24  <gps> great talk
2007-02-24T19:26:36  <dijix> this guy is too funny
2007-02-24T19:26:57  <gps> yes.  make sure he speaks again in the future
2007-02-24T19:27:03  <maelztrom> guido san!
2007-02-24T19:28:41  <Tv> the beginning of this talk was depressing, with him looking at slides and the mic not catching much
2007-02-24T19:28:50  <Tv> but it was way better than it seemed ;)
2007-02-24T19:28:56  <gps> yeah
2007-02-24T19:29:00  * Tv bows
2007-02-24T19:29:16  <ErikRose> "Period of winter-like hardship". YES. :-D
2007-02-24T19:29:19  <Tv> woo pydoctor!
2007-02-24T19:29:45  *** egrubbs has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T19:31:25  <gps> haha ZJangoGears coming up
2007-02-24T19:31:35  <alect> that japanese guy was awesome
2007-02-24T19:31:43  <ErikRose> Anybody get his name?
2007-02-24T19:31:45  <philiKON> alect: what did he talk about?
2007-02-24T19:32:04  <alect> PyJUG - japanese users group
2007-02-24T19:32:09  <ari> er-like hardship
2007-02-24T19:32:15  <thatch> and how it's not HOT becuase it doesn't have Matz
2007-02-24T19:32:22  <wam_> Atsushi Shibata
2007-02-24T19:32:22  <thatch> Python in Japan is very COLD
2007-02-24T19:32:23  <alect> barely spoke english, but he was very witty :)
2007-02-24T19:32:34  <thatch> yes, and he used Keynote.  On a Mac, Alec.
2007-02-24T19:32:37  <gps> nah he spoke pretty well
2007-02-24T19:32:42  <gps> just had the usual accent
2007-02-24T19:32:47  <alect> heh
2007-02-24T19:32:54  <edbrannin> Indeed.
2007-02-24T19:32:57  <alect> TRAC
2007-02-24T19:33:17  <alect> yes, perhaps i exaggerated somewhat :)
2007-02-24T19:33:17  * philiKON is interested in zjangogears. that's ian bicking talking, probably?
2007-02-24T19:33:40  <Tv> philiKON: it says "http://ian-bickings-computer.local/zjangogears/" at the top
2007-02-24T19:33:41  <gps> too many new faces for me to know
2007-02-24T19:33:52  <Tv> philiKON: if you have mDNS configured you may be able to browse it ;)
2007-02-24T19:34:03  <ari> the first mistake was making it unpronouncable
2007-02-24T19:34:19  <philiKON> Tv: uh, i'm not at the conference :(
2007-02-24T19:34:23  *** mwh has quit IRC
2007-02-24T19:34:29  <philiKON> but thanks anyway
2007-02-24T19:34:42  <Tv> philiKON: you just need someone to proxy it ;)
2007-02-24T19:34:53  <philiKON> i'm just here to lurk and pick up whatever you guys are blabbering about ;)
2007-02-24T19:34:55  <gps> this should be funny
2007-02-24T19:35:12  * philiKON wishes there were video streams
2007-02-24T19:35:56  <Tv> this is the reason why Real Programmers use the keyboard
2007-02-24T19:35:58  <ari> only irc transcripts
2007-02-24T19:35:59  <gps> hahahaha
2007-02-24T19:36:14  <philiKON> if you guys would type everything they say, sure :)
2007-02-24T19:36:16  <philiKON> it'd settle for that
2007-02-24T19:36:17  <philiKON> ;)
2007-02-24T19:36:25  <gps> this one needs a video
2007-02-24T19:36:36  <philiKON> heck, i'd even settle for an *audio* stream
2007-02-24T19:36:46  *** mwh has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T19:36:50  <gps> laughing too hard to type
2007-02-24T19:36:58  <mwh> my talk wasn't so funny, oh well
2007-02-24T19:37:04  <ari> philikon: will be mp3
2007-02-24T19:37:05  <maelztrom> when is the video from this going to be released?
2007-02-24T19:37:10  <philiKON> ari: cool!
2007-02-24T19:37:25  <philiKON> mwh: what did you tlak about?
2007-02-24T19:37:29  <ari> i should have a lightning talk showcasing olpc photoshops
2007-02-24T19:37:33  <creiht> That's hot
2007-02-24T19:37:42  <gps> haha ari
2007-02-24T19:37:43  <mwh> pydoctor
2007-02-24T19:37:50  <philiKON> k
2007-02-24T19:38:03  <ari> htto://priv.ebnj.net/onelaptopperlaptop.jpg
2007-02-24T19:38:36  <mwh> htto? :)
2007-02-24T19:38:51  <gps> the successor to httpo duh
2007-02-24T19:38:58  <DuncF> superb!!
2007-02-24T19:39:00  <sod> omg
2007-02-24T19:39:03  <sod> that just made pycon
2007-02-24T19:39:04  <creiht> That was awesome
2007-02-24T19:39:11  * mwh was wandering why clicking that didn't work
2007-02-24T19:39:17  <DuncF> where can I download it???
2007-02-24T19:39:18  <ari> um
2007-02-24T19:39:30  <ari> httop//priv.ebnj.net/onelaptopperlaptop.jpg
2007-02-24T19:39:37  <ari> gah :(
2007-02-24T19:39:46  <ari> you get the idea
2007-02-24T19:39:58  <gps> fark olpc photoshop contest needed
2007-02-24T19:40:08  <Tv> wam_: im in ur notes, reading ur typos
2007-02-24T19:40:12  <ari> i tried doing it on somethingawful
2007-02-24T19:40:21  <Tv> wam_: "whitelisting of modules that could be evil" can't be true
2007-02-24T19:40:32  <Tv> wam_: it's either blacklisting potential bad or whitelisting known good
2007-02-24T19:40:54  *** jtauber has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T19:41:00  *** thatch has quit IRC
2007-02-24T19:41:32  <wam_> yeah, I thought it was odd too... was gonna look at his slides closer tonight
2007-02-24T19:42:00  <gps> this rocks
2007-02-24T19:42:22  *** Six`oh`six has quit IRC
2007-02-24T19:42:24  <gps> he's gonna make me buy a new phone isn't he
2007-02-24T19:42:29  *** _chris_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T19:42:39  *** mwh has quit IRC
2007-02-24T19:43:36  *** dstanek has quit IRC
2007-02-24T19:45:30  <sod> and irish trains are worse than he lets on...
2007-02-24T19:45:37  *** _chris_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T19:45:38  <sod> im suprised he didnt demo an os he wrote on the train
2007-02-24T19:45:51  *** benbangert has quit IRC
2007-02-24T19:46:09  <DuncF> sod: I can personally vouch for the annoying cuckoo sounds!
2007-02-24T19:46:13  <Tv> I noticed a large part of the audience seemed to miss the part about german..
2007-02-24T19:46:19  <Tv> You really can set your clock based on their trains.
2007-02-24T19:46:40  <sod> DuncF, could be worse, could be the crazy frog
2007-02-24T19:46:48  <DuncF> lol, True
2007-02-24T19:46:48  <Tv> sod: GAAH!
2007-02-24T19:46:52  <jerry_s> lol
2007-02-24T19:46:55  <Tv> sod: I HAD ALREADY PURGED THAT MEMORY
2007-02-24T19:46:59  <jerry_s> or the hamster dance
2007-02-24T19:47:03  *** creiht has quit IRC
2007-02-24T19:47:10  *** mwh has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T19:47:11  <sod> Tv, dooby ddoobity daaa daa daa daa daa
2007-02-24T19:47:23  <mwh> grr crashing laptop
2007-02-24T19:47:34  <sod> wow, crazy frog crashes laptops
2007-02-24T19:47:42  <ErikRose> Crazy army of crashing frogs?
2007-02-24T19:48:09  <ErikRose> That's what we'll have to call our band at next year's PyCon.
2007-02-24T19:48:15  <jafo> Anyone who can approve sites for us.pycon.org, can you please approve journal.jafo.ca?
2007-02-24T19:48:40  <jafo> I want it for my image of a Mac configuration setting for wireless.
2007-02-24T19:48:53  *** cbcunc has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T19:49:11  <gps> off to dinner
2007-02-24T19:49:25  <jafo> Oh, http://journal.jafo.ca/ has lots of photos.
2007-02-24T19:49:26  * MarkB1_backSoon is back.
2007-02-24T19:49:26  *** MarkB1_backSoon is now known as MarkB1
2007-02-24T19:49:50  <cbcunc> https://weblion.psu.edu/trac/weblion/wiki/PyCon
2007-02-24T19:50:11  <ErikRose> Yeah?
2007-02-24T19:50:21  <ErikRose> Oh. Ah. :-)
2007-02-24T19:50:29  <ErikRose> Yes, please use the wiki. Go nuts.
2007-02-24T19:50:32  <ErikRose> It'll hold up.
2007-02-24T19:50:57  <jafo> Are YOU talking to ME?
2007-02-24T19:51:07  <ErikRose> I think he was.
2007-02-24T19:51:36  <ErikRose> If you can use the PyCon wiki, more power to you, but I've had the problems you're having.
2007-02-24T19:51:41  <jafo> Well, you see, I'm talking about the Wiki on us.pycon.org, it requires a password to enable image links to sites that it doesn't know.
2007-02-24T19:51:58  <jafo> http://us.pycon.org/TX2007/NetworkInfo
2007-02-24T19:52:09  <ErikRose> Can
2007-02-24T19:52:11  *** pfein_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T19:52:14  <ErikRose> Can't help ya there, I'm afraid
2007-02-24T19:52:34  <ErikRose> I have that other wiki cbcunc cited, and you're welcome to use it, though people might not find it as easily.
2007-02-24T19:52:40  <ErikRose> that's all I'm saying. :-)
2007-02-24T19:52:50  <jafo> Yeah, I was more hoping that anyone who *COULD* help *WOULD*, instead of all the people whom couldn't would.  :-)
2007-02-24T19:53:01  *** pfein has quit IRC
2007-02-24T19:53:03  <ErikRose> Hey, I like to do the impossible, too. ;-)
2007-02-24T19:53:09  *** jtauber has quit IRC
2007-02-24T19:53:21  <jafo> Yeah, that's why I want it on the wiki with the main page.
2007-02-24T19:53:41  <jafo> I mean, hey, you're welcome to import it on your wiki, but networking info I think should be high on the main 2007 page.
2007-02-24T19:53:42  <ErikRose> What are these arrays? Sparse?
2007-02-24T19:53:51  <ErikRose> jafo: Hey, I'm with you.
2007-02-24T19:54:01  *** rkern has quit IRC
2007-02-24T19:54:05  <jafo> No...  Runar and Martin are with me.  :-P
2007-02-24T19:54:24  <ErikRose> Sorry, don't know them. :-)
2007-02-24T19:54:43  <alect> erik, trac monkeys are going to dinner if you want ot come
2007-02-24T19:54:52  <alect> any other trac people welcome too of course :)
2007-02-24T19:54:59  <ErikRose> Ach, du lieber. I'm afraid I already made plans. Thanks, though!
2007-02-24T19:55:01  <wam_> ErikRose, yes, I believe they can be sparse, and "floating point data type" is special as well
2007-02-24T19:55:04  * alect ejects
2007-02-24T19:55:07  *** gtalvola has quit IRC
2007-02-24T19:55:09  <alect> meeting at the end of the hall
2007-02-24T19:55:09  <maelztrom> trac monkeys...
2007-02-24T19:55:09  <dijix> time for a beer
2007-02-24T19:55:10  *** nerd_alert has quit IRC
2007-02-24T19:55:11  <mwh> fooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooood
2007-02-24T19:55:13  *** mwh has quit IRC
2007-02-24T19:55:14  <wam_> What's for dinner?
2007-02-24T19:55:17  <maelztrom> anybody here even run trac on an obsd system?
2007-02-24T19:55:20  *** dijix has quit IRC
2007-02-24T19:55:40  *** DuncF has quit IRC
2007-02-24T19:55:52  *** gldnspud has quit IRC
2007-02-24T19:56:04  *** Veloso has quit IRC
2007-02-24T19:56:21  <wam_> updated notes on the presos I attended are at http://wamber.net/static/PyCon-2007/
2007-02-24T19:56:35  *** nerd_alert has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T19:57:17  <wam_> FOOD?? anyone have any plans?
2007-02-24T19:57:23  *** Tv has quit IRC
2007-02-24T19:57:33  *** nerd_alert has quit IRC
2007-02-24T19:58:35  *** cbcunc has quit IRC
2007-02-24T19:58:47  *** dand has quit IRC
2007-02-24T19:59:27  *** rmunn has quit IRC
2007-02-24T20:01:43  *** wam_ has left #pycon
2007-02-24T20:02:06  <ari> 'm hungry
2007-02-24T20:02:08  <ari> i am
2007-02-24T20:02:25  *** ErikRose has quit IRC
2007-02-24T20:04:08  *** edbrannin has quit IRC
2007-02-24T20:05:48  *** dijix has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T20:06:29  *** efm has quit IRC
2007-02-24T20:07:31  *** dstanek has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T20:12:50  *** _matt_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T20:13:37  *** edbrannin has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T20:13:54  *** cablehead has quit IRC
2007-02-24T20:14:03  *** jerry_s has quit IRC
2007-02-24T20:14:54  *** shawn has quit IRC
2007-02-24T20:14:56  *** romanoffi has quit IRC
2007-02-24T20:17:02  *** sod has quit IRC
2007-02-24T20:18:10  *** _chris_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T20:18:19  *** pfein_ is now known as pfein
2007-02-24T20:18:28  *** bryan_ is now known as bryan
2007-02-24T20:21:51  *** ionel_mc has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T20:23:20  *** dijix has quit IRC
2007-02-24T20:30:20  *** coderanger_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T20:30:43  *** dstanek has quit IRC
2007-02-24T20:35:58  *** retracile has quit IRC
2007-02-24T20:36:48  *** edbrannin has quit IRC
2007-02-24T20:36:59  *** _chris_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T20:40:15  *** Tv has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T20:50:18  *** MarkB1 has left #pycon
2007-02-24T20:53:15  *** pfein has quit IRC
2007-02-24T20:54:10  *** DuncF has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T20:56:49  *** DuncF has quit IRC
2007-02-24T20:57:29  *** sod has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T21:03:25  *** coderanger__ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T21:03:26  *** coderanger__ is now known as coderanger_
2007-02-24T21:04:39  *** ecn has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T21:09:05  *** retracile has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T21:09:14  *** _chris_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T21:11:29  *** pfein has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T21:18:29  *** __jt__ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T21:21:26  *** Tv has quit IRC
2007-02-24T21:22:10  *** Catspaw has quit IRC
2007-02-24T21:32:08  *** _matt_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T21:45:18  *** jtauber has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T21:52:52  *** Tv has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T21:58:09  *** pobrien has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T21:59:50  *** gldnspud has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T22:01:34  *** gldnspud has quit IRC
2007-02-24T22:02:54  *** nerd_alert has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T22:08:04  *** gldnspud has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T22:09:05  *** jtauber has quit IRC
2007-02-24T22:09:55  *** jtauber has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T22:18:52  *** rmunn has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T22:21:16  *** __jt__ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T22:22:34  *** Tv has quit IRC
2007-02-24T22:27:10  *** jtauber has quit IRC
2007-02-24T22:32:20  *** ecn has quit IRC
2007-02-24T22:33:55  *** jtauber has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T22:34:47  *** retracile has quit IRC
2007-02-24T22:35:56  *** nerd_alert has quit IRC
2007-02-24T22:40:30  *** jbellis has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T22:40:38  *** dydimustk has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T22:42:19  *** ionel_mc is now known as Leonord
2007-02-24T22:42:46  *** efm has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T22:42:49  <efm> hello
2007-02-24T22:42:59  <ari> ahoy
2007-02-24T22:43:09  <efm> hi ari
2007-02-24T22:43:14  <ari> hi efm
2007-02-24T22:50:01  *** danmil has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T22:58:10  *** greenfngrs has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T23:03:00  *** greenfngrs has quit IRC
2007-02-24T23:10:06  *** dstanek has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T23:10:29  *** stati1 has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T23:15:12  *** _matt_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T23:17:38  *** thatch has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T23:26:05  *** dydimustk has quit IRC
2007-02-24T23:27:59  *** markluffel has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T23:35:00  *** danmil has quit IRC
2007-02-24T23:44:18  *** coderanger_ has quit IRC
2007-02-24T23:45:31  *** Six`oh`six has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T23:45:36  *** _matt_ has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T23:46:30  *** jerry_s has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T23:51:35  *** egrubbs has quit IRC
2007-02-24T23:55:51  *** CarlFK has joined #pycon
2007-02-24T23:58:27  *** thatch has quit IRC
2007-02-24T23:59:32  *** jbellis has quit IRC
2007-02-24T23:59:34  *** exogen has joined #pycon