2007-02-23T10:05:51 *** SnarfBot has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T10:06:16 <_moshez> supybot doesn't use twisted :( 2007-02-23T10:06:36 _moshez: :-( 2007-02-23T10:07:23 <_moshez> I don't like the UN :( 2007-02-23T10:07:39 is this going to be running commentary 2007-02-23T10:07:45 _moshez: neither does the US gov't 2007-02-23T10:07:53 <_moshez> radix: perhaps! I do not know 2007-02-23T10:07:54 radix: but of course 2007-02-23T10:08:04 <_moshez> radix: perhaps it is going to be running poking fingers in tummies 2007-02-23T10:09:05 * mwh moves 2007-02-23T10:09:10 <_moshez> where? 2007-02-23T10:09:16 away from you and your fingers 2007-02-23T10:09:20 <_moshez> :( 2007-02-23T10:09:26 <_moshez> why do you hate me and my fingers 2007-02-23T10:09:27 he goes north 2007-02-23T10:09:30 there is no light 2007-02-23T10:09:36 <_moshez> the grue the grue! 2007-02-23T10:09:55 * mwh is eaten 2007-02-23T10:10:01 My keyboard is suddenly glowing blue 2007-02-23T10:10:03 <_moshez> is your tummy also eaten 2007-02-23T10:10:07 the dungeon collapses... you die! 2007-02-23T10:10:45 the grue abides 2007-02-23T10:11:41 Logs: http://weblion.psu.edu/pyconlogs/2007/02/ 2007-02-23T10:11:52 <_moshez> deep truths: kids who get good scholarship are also good in college 2007-02-23T10:11:57 <_moshez> apparently, it is depressing 2007-02-23T10:12:00 *** ErikRose changes topic to "Logs: http://weblion.psu.edu/pyconlogs/2007/02/" 2007-02-23T10:12:03 thanks erik 2007-02-23T10:12:07 np 2007-02-23T10:12:14 *** ecn has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T10:12:31 *** wam_ has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T10:12:46 <_moshez> well, if you're brilliant, you don't cheat, you just teach yourself 2007-02-23T10:13:35 <_moshez> wtf, croatia is totally 3rd world 2007-02-23T10:13:44 But Itatly isn't. 2007-02-23T10:13:50 Nor Italy 2007-02-23T10:13:52 :-) 2007-02-23T10:13:53 one of my best prof's is from croatia 2007-02-23T10:14:04 <_moshez> so? it's still 3rd world :) 2007-02-23T10:14:07 it would have been tito-time when he was in school i guess? 2007-02-23T10:14:29 anyone get that last quote on top 25? 2007-02-23T10:14:36 <_moshez> I think there are worst things we can do to the kids 2007-02-23T10:14:43 <_moshez> like, I don't know, nuking them? 2007-02-23T10:14:59 was that a suggestion? 2007-02-23T10:15:14 <_moshez> well, he said the worst thing is to do nothing 2007-02-23T10:15:17 <_moshez> I disagree :) 2007-02-23T10:15:21 heh. 2007-02-23T10:15:40 moshez always looking on the bright side 2007-02-23T10:15:52 <_moshez> nukes are pretty bright 2007-02-23T10:16:08 yay buckets of instant sunshine 2007-02-23T10:16:14 good quality for a programmer 2007-02-23T10:16:24 <_moshez> hrm kinda brings a whole new meaning to "let the sunshine in' 2007-02-23T10:16:25 of course .il doesn't have nukes, right? 2007-02-23T10:16:37 * dijix sings "Always look on the bright side of life!" 2007-02-23T10:16:40 one nuke per child 2007-02-23T10:16:40 *** __jt__ has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T10:16:44 <_moshez> YES 2007-02-23T10:16:49 can laptops compensate for lousy teaching? maybe somewhat... 2007-02-23T10:16:50 <_moshez> this would be the bestest program ever 2007-02-23T10:17:06 not child left not irradiated. 2007-02-23T10:17:09 *** cbcunc has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T10:17:18 s/not/no/ 2007-02-23T10:17:29 <_moshez> no child left behind as non-mutated human? 2007-02-23T10:17:58 no child left alive... 2007-02-23T10:18:04 how does one secure a laptop against bullets? 2007-02-23T10:18:27 *** coderanger_ has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T10:18:35 make the kids stand in front of the laptop. 2007-02-23T10:18:40 kevlar laptop case 2007-02-23T10:18:42 :-) 2007-02-23T10:19:13 *** thatch_ has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T10:19:49 can it run emacs? 2007-02-23T10:20:03 jwhitlark: Yes 2007-02-23T10:20:03 wonder if you could power those things with the thermal energy of radioactive decay... 2007-02-23T10:20:15 *** cmlenz has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T10:20:21 <_moshez> it could be a solution for exercise problems 2007-02-23T10:20:22 from the one nuke per child? 2007-02-23T10:20:25 <_moshez> force the kids to run 2007-02-23T10:20:27 jwhitlark: Though xemacs gets grumpy under sugar 2007-02-23T10:20:30 <_moshez> the bastards 2007-02-23T10:20:52 *** tpollari has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T10:20:58 er...well, ONPC, or what'll be left over when we're done invading iran 2007-02-23T10:21:14 <_moshez> woo invading iran 2007-02-23T10:21:17 I wonder if one of the reasons for low specs is to make it less of a target for theft.. 2007-02-23T10:21:19 so we should be giving them out in the US> 2007-02-23T10:21:35 <_moshez> jwhitlark: I was attempting to not be racist :) 2007-02-23T10:21:45 teratorn: Its on the list, there were worries they would get "reassigned" 2007-02-23T10:21:54 *** __jt__ has quit IRC 2007-02-23T10:22:12 it has some sort of kill switch... 2007-02-23T10:22:15 mostly just thinking it'd make a nice system to stick in the wall to act as a torrent node to resist the mpaafia 2007-02-23T10:22:17 <_moshez> "forceful reassignment" as a euphemism for theft 2007-02-23T10:22:23 I would totally buy a mclappy for my kids... 2007-02-23T10:23:05 *** benbangert has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T10:23:12 keep them off of my porn^h^h^h^h lappy 2007-02-23T10:24:05 * _moshez starts thinging 2007-02-23T10:24:15 as it this channel where someone commented the other day that some kid in a rural village in kenya is probably going to die the first time he powers his system off and breaks the global route running through his villae? 2007-02-23T10:24:29 <_moshez> o/~ The ESS mesh is for porn, the ESS mesh is for porn o/~ 2007-02-23T10:25:29 <_moshez> oh man 2007-02-23T10:25:30 Glligan on a bamboo bicycle! 2007-02-23T10:25:32 Steve Holden's usb port broke, and when he plugged in a mouse, it fried his Dell... 2007-02-23T10:25:36 <_moshez> I should totally parody the whole song 2007-02-23T10:25:51 _moshez: +1 2007-02-23T10:26:18 hrmmm powing laptops with a .. pulling motion.. hrmm 2007-02-23T10:27:47 *** _chris_ has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T10:27:47 is that where the porn comes in? 2007-02-23T10:27:47 yanking and wanking 2007-02-23T10:27:47 that could get sticky 2007-02-23T10:27:47 I think so.. you know how porn always leads technological adoption.. 2007-02-23T10:27:47 *** jacobkm has quit IRC 2007-02-23T10:27:47 <_chris_> how did they get the display to show up under the hot sun? 2007-02-23T10:27:47 except in HD... ick 2007-02-23T10:27:47 * Six`oh`six shakes head 2007-02-23T10:27:57 *** oubiwann is now known as FourOhFour 2007-02-23T10:28:16 slick engineering feat 2007-02-23T10:28:21 Anyway, I'm getting on SubEthaEdit. There are 2 other people there. I'll paste my notes into a new doc. 2007-02-23T10:28:21 I would like to know when they're going to be done. It seems like they just keep talking about it. 2007-02-23T10:28:27 * ErikRose compiles Gobby meanwhile. 2007-02-23T10:28:31 IT"S REAL 2007-02-23T10:28:48 <_chris_> is that a laptop or a dry erase board that college students hang on their dorm room door? 2007-02-23T10:29:02 <_chris_> oh it's a lappy 2007-02-23T10:29:12 *** blinkylights23 has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T10:29:13 I saw that there is going to be a session later where you can actually check it out 2007-02-23T10:29:40 *** FourOhFour is now known as oubiwann 2007-02-23T10:30:04 I'd give him $130 for it right now 2007-02-23T10:30:29 profit!!! 2007-02-23T10:30:30 140! 2007-02-23T10:30:37 do i hear 150 2007-02-23T10:30:39 ? 2007-02-23T10:31:12 2km? I'll bid 150 ;) 2007-02-23T10:31:26 <_moshez> I have the first verse written 2007-02-23T10:31:37 *** jacobkm has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T10:31:42 Boy, who's funding this thing? 2007-02-23T10:31:44 _moshez, you had better not be writing filk 2007-02-23T10:31:57 <_moshez> radix: I am so writing filk 2007-02-23T10:31:59 <_moshez> also 2007-02-23T10:32:05 <_moshez> I have very little battery left 2007-02-23T10:32:08 <_moshez> ironically enough 2007-02-23T10:32:11 <_moshez> so I'm signing off 2007-02-23T10:32:18 <_moshez> bb after I get more power 2007-02-23T10:32:21 see you soon 2007-02-23T10:32:21 <_moshez> YAY power 2007-02-23T10:32:46 ErikRose: OLPC? Everyone 2007-02-23T10:32:57 How do they make money from it? 2007-02-23T10:33:00 *** _moshez has quit IRC 2007-02-23T10:33:14 Grants? Volume? 2007-02-23T10:33:19 Mostly grants 2007-02-23T10:33:28 ErikRose: grants/donations 2007-02-23T10:33:34 OLPC is founded by Nicholas Negroponte 2007-02-23T10:33:35 Neat. 2007-02-23T10:33:39 What company wouldn't want to support this :P 2007-02-23T10:34:01 by breedeing an army of third-worlders with newfound access to Amazon 2007-02-23T10:34:07 I lived with a guy from Chad (Africa, fairly 3rd world) for a bit. It's interesting that his country was full of cell phones. 2007-02-23T10:34:23 They never had time, money, or government to run landlines, but cell towers are easy. :-) 2007-02-23T10:34:27 it costs less to fly the cell towers than stringing poles 2007-02-23T10:34:35 Exactly. 2007-02-23T10:34:42 *** teratorn_ has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T10:34:54 And they don't have our crufty legacy to deal with. 2007-02-23T10:34:56 easier to maintain 2007-02-23T10:34:58 don't forget botnet potential 2007-02-23T10:35:07 There's a ton of potential for legacy-freeness in the third world. 2007-02-23T10:35:18 they're very aware of the botnet potential 2007-02-23T10:35:22 they're runing linux and shipped by the US...I'm sure CIA/NSA gets a free backdoor 2007-02-23T10:35:25 "OLPC: brought to you by the Russian mafia" 2007-02-23T10:35:28 second brain 2007-02-23T10:35:37 you referring to something specific ianbicking ? 2007-02-23T10:35:38 you have to be pretty paranoid when you are deploying such a large number of homogeneous machines 2007-02-23T10:35:40 *** teratorn has quit IRC 2007-02-23T10:36:20 maelztrom: the security system goes well beyond the normal Linux security 2007-02-23T10:36:46 he'll probably talk about it later; Ivan designed that part 2007-02-23T10:37:02 Now you've got me curious :) 2007-02-23T10:37:15 imagine a world where children never learn to use brackets 2007-02-23T10:37:25 *sniff* 2007-02-23T10:37:46 *** celluglyph has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T10:37:52 grover2: or semi-colons 2007-02-23T10:37:56 life;s better without braces... 2007-02-23T10:37:56 list-less python? stackless wasn't good enough? 2007-02-23T10:38:38 there was a lwn article on it recently 2007-02-23T10:40:03 Wow.. I use that every day! 2007-02-23T10:40:17 my soul hurts 2007-02-23T10:40:20 jealousy 2007-02-23T10:40:26 celluglyph: get a real computer 2007-02-23T10:40:26 wow... motivation to answer questions 2007-02-23T10:40:38 trick or laptop 2007-02-23T10:40:41 damn, i new that 2007-02-23T10:40:43 knew 2007-02-23T10:40:53 radix: I have like fifteen computers on me 2007-02-23T10:41:02 * radix heads for the con, brt 2007-02-23T10:41:19 celluglyph: you *are* wearable computing 2007-02-23T10:41:43 *** jacobkm has quit IRC 2007-02-23T10:44:12 *** jafo has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T10:45:22 *** pfein-away has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T10:45:50 an Easy button 2007-02-23T10:45:55 hehe 2007-02-23T10:46:09 *** pfein-away is now known as pfein 2007-02-23T10:46:14 that is slick 2007-02-23T10:47:10 Back to Lisp machines we go, eh? 2007-02-23T10:47:44 *back*? forward, more like! ;-) 2007-02-23T10:48:04 Would that they never had died. :-) 2007-02-23T10:48:26 I want to run this in a VM just to play with it! 2007-02-23T10:48:37 I'm getting giddy here 2007-02-23T10:48:38 *** jacobkm has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T10:48:38 *** pobrien_ has quit IRC 2007-02-23T10:48:49 ooh 2007-02-23T10:48:58 I bet if we asked him he could make an image available? 2007-02-23T10:49:10 and the python interpreter, obviously 2007-02-23T10:49:14 wow. no bs, that could change the world... 2007-02-23T10:49:16 maelztrom: image of the OS? 2007-02-23T10:49:25 That would rock. 2007-02-23T10:49:33 ErikRose: wiki.laptop.org 2007-02-23T10:49:38 aye ianbicking 2007-02-23T10:49:38 everything is being implemented in open repositories 2007-02-23T10:49:40 :-D 2007-02-23T10:49:46 Search for "vmware olpc" 2007-02-23T10:49:51 pretty easy to stup 2007-02-23T10:50:01 Yeah, the vmware image works great -- fun to fool around with 2007-02-23T10:50:12 Sweet! 2007-02-23T10:50:14 http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Home 2007-02-23T10:50:17 but what button will I use for the "easy" button... 2007-02-23T10:50:32 Heh, replacing ZODB with this occurs to me. 2007-02-23T10:50:39 *** jvansickel has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T10:50:53 Its hard to get a feel for it though, since running on VMwar on a nice laptop is much faster than the XO itself 2007-02-23T10:51:50 yay sugar 2007-02-23T10:51:59 sweet 2007-02-23T10:52:08 it had to be said... 2007-02-23T10:52:32 ya 2007-02-23T10:52:58 142 meg zip file, anybody has the image locally that has apache or something going on their system in this room? 2007-02-23T10:53:51 *** pobrien has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T10:54:12 <_chris_> ya - good luck with that download. the internets are so slow! 2007-02-23T10:54:22 Less's Law? ;-) 2007-02-23T10:54:57 If I get it (2 hrs, 35 min left) I'll toss up a webserver over the wireless for people interested 2007-02-23T10:55:10 maelztrom: Sounds good. 2007-02-23T10:55:22 *** benbangert has quit IRC 2007-02-23T10:55:44 Those are *both* ridiculous. 2007-02-23T10:56:19 <_chris_> IsoRecorder is like 100KB 2007-02-23T10:56:44 yeah, and the user interface experience with that is likely a lot less than the 400mb 2007-02-23T10:57:14 <_chris_> it's basically: right click on an ISO file, left click on "Burn to CD". you get a dialog window with a progress bar. pretty swoopy 2007-02-23T10:57:31 but where does clippy go? 2007-02-23T10:57:50 ...Mr. Bigglesworth. 2007-02-23T10:58:43 I remember when MacWrite was 40K. 2007-02-23T10:59:06 EDIT.COM! 2007-02-23T10:59:09 emacs problem 2007-02-23T10:59:40 the feature is I can't open someones f**king word 2007 file. 2007-02-23T10:59:50 *** dijix2 has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T10:59:58 *** dijix has quit IRC 2007-02-23T11:00:06 *** dijix2 is now known as dijix 2007-02-23T11:00:10 So do third world kids use emacs or vi? 2007-02-23T11:00:19 Ed is the standard. ;-) 2007-02-23T11:00:23 stickmacs? 2007-02-23T11:00:30 cat >>file 2007-02-23T11:00:39 What...it runs linux, they have cat and a pipe... 2007-02-23T11:00:45 creiht: vi 2007-02-23T11:00:45 lol 2007-02-23T11:01:17 object store filesystem remember... their going to be instantiating file objects.... 2007-02-23T11:01:18 vi+Cream, at least last I heard 2007-02-23T11:01:38 s/their/they're/ 2007-02-23T11:03:01 *** pfein_ has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T11:04:04 *** pfein has quit IRC 2007-02-23T11:05:26 *** alect has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T11:05:35 pycon! 2007-02-23T11:06:09 We can try using this wiki [https://weblion.psu.edu/trac/weblion/wiki/PyCon] for note taking, though I'm not terribly confident it'll scale, usability-wise. :-) 2007-02-23T11:06:24 Meanwhile, I'm on SubEthaEdit till I manage to compile Gobby 2007-02-23T11:07:05 is subethaedit available under Linux yet? 2007-02-23T11:07:10 heh, you wish. 2007-02-23T11:07:27 yeah, I do. :-) 2007-02-23T11:08:28 I never had good luck compiling gobby's dependencies myself. It was a little dicey on Gentoo even. 2007-02-23T11:08:38 * ErikRose tries MacPorts. 2007-02-23T11:08:53 "apt-get install goppy" worked just fine for me. :-) 2007-02-23T11:09:07 25Mb/sec = 20 seconds to fill the drive 2007-02-23T11:09:20 much different from my HDs 2007-02-23T11:09:21 ianbicking: heh 2007-02-23T11:09:40 The network is the new HD. :-) 2007-02-23T11:09:54 *** T2 has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T11:09:55 network is the computer? how 1990s... 2007-02-23T11:10:07 Not computation, just storage 2007-02-23T11:10:37 get those kids gmail and run gmailfs--capacity is quadrupled 2007-02-23T11:10:53 'course somebody would need an actual net connection 2007-02-23T11:11:24 *** T2 is now known as Tv 2007-02-23T11:11:30 but that could just be one person a thousand miles away 2007-02-23T11:12:31 ...who would serve gmailfs at high latency for thousands of people? 2007-02-23T11:13:02 *** thatch_ is now known as thatch 2007-02-23T11:13:07 the storage abstractions are different on the laptop 2007-02-23T11:13:23 gmailfs, webdav, etc aren't very good platforms for traditional storage abstractions 2007-02-23T11:13:39 like when you expect listdir or stat to be really fast 2007-02-23T11:13:48 still two gigs of free storage for something 2007-02-23T11:13:50 PEPs in Croatian :-) 2007-02-23T11:14:04 #python is going to get *real* busy 2007-02-23T11:14:08 #python will become a true hell 2007-02-23T11:14:14 heh 2007-02-23T11:14:35 heh, the IQ level in #python will probably increase. 2007-02-23T11:14:39 We can start a "Tier 2" channel where you have to solve the first 3 levels of the Python Challenge to get in. ;-) 2007-02-23T11:14:45 anyone know if this keynote is being recorded? 2007-02-23T11:14:49 well, #python-pt etc 2007-02-23T11:14:51 jerry_s: eventually... 2007-02-23T11:14:54 I hope so - its been a really good one 2007-02-23T11:15:19 there's someone by the soundboard with a video camera 2007-02-23T11:16:08 yeah, I'll chat with Carl and see if anyone's recording this -- I just got curious now (instant gratification and all) 2007-02-23T11:17:03 wow, this stuff could work and I want to make it work.. 2007-02-23T11:17:07 heh 2007-02-23T11:17:07 It's interesting. I don't think they could have accomplished this before Open Source and Python. 2007-02-23T11:17:10 *** jacobkm has quit IRC 2007-02-23T11:17:47 no way at all 2007-02-23T11:18:13 *** pobrien has quit IRC 2007-02-23T11:18:34 must resist urge to ask about etoys .... 2007-02-23T11:18:47 *** jwhitlark has left #pycon 2007-02-23T11:19:17 don't fight it 2007-02-23T11:19:26 *** cablehead has quit IRC 2007-02-23T11:19:33 *** pfein has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T11:19:43 *** pobrien has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T11:19:52 I really need to finish my pygame insanity so we can show a strong case for ditching it 2007-02-23T11:20:27 ? 2007-02-23T11:20:34 I forget—were the Lisp machines really beefy, hardware-wise? 2007-02-23T11:20:43 I guess probably not by today's standards, in any case. 2007-02-23T11:20:52 ianbicking: The laptops include a Squeak VM right now for EToys 2007-02-23T11:20:59 *** tpollari has quit IRC 2007-02-23T11:21:03 *** dijix has quit IRC 2007-02-23T11:21:08 but what's the problem with pygame? 2007-02-23T11:21:08 I have complained to them about this at length ;-) 2007-02-23T11:21:17 ianbicking: It requires SDL 2007-02-23T11:21:39 I want to make a pygame compatible layer that uses gtk/cairo/csound 2007-02-23T11:22:16 is sdl too big, slow, ...? I'm curious 2007-02-23T11:22:30 Its about 6Mb for all the SDL libs 2007-02-23T11:23:08 about half of that is uneeded binaries, but 3M is still something 2007-02-23T11:23:11 *** dijix has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T11:24:55 four hours estimated left on that olpc downlod..looks like this won't be finishing today in this connection 2007-02-23T11:25:55 *** ecn has left #pycon 2007-02-23T11:26:03 *** tpollari has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T11:27:26 *** ErikRose changes topic to "Logs: http://weblion.psu.edu/pyconlogs/ Extremely unofficial wiki for notes: https://weblion.psu.edu/trac/weblion/wiki/PyCon Somebody please come up with a better idea." 2007-02-23T11:28:38 The whole thing reminds me a little of Smalltalk. 2007-02-23T11:30:40 *** ecn has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T11:31:30 *** pobrien has quit IRC 2007-02-23T11:31:35 *** oubiwann has quit IRC 2007-02-23T11:31:45 *** creiht has quit IRC 2007-02-23T11:32:31 *** blinkylights23 has quit IRC 2007-02-23T11:33:01 *** tpollari has quit IRC 2007-02-23T11:33:03 *** Six`oh`six has quit IRC 2007-02-23T11:33:14 *** ErikRose has quit IRC 2007-02-23T11:33:26 *** _chris_ has quit IRC 2007-02-23T11:33:58 *** rmunn has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T11:34:33 *** thatch has quit IRC 2007-02-23T11:34:55 *** rmunn has quit IRC 2007-02-23T11:38:30 *** mwh has quit IRC 2007-02-23T11:42:16 *** greenfngrs has quit IRC 2007-02-23T11:42:38 *** __jt__ has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T11:46:34 *** pfein_ has quit IRC 2007-02-23T11:46:57 *** creiht has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T11:48:25 *** tpollari has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T11:49:24 *** _chris_ has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T11:49:33 *** ErikRose has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T11:50:24 ballroom wifi started to choke up baaad 2007-02-23T11:50:26 this is much better 2007-02-23T11:50:34 *** coderanger_ has quit IRC 2007-02-23T11:50:44 *** cbcunc has quit IRC 2007-02-23T11:50:44 *** dijix has quit IRC 2007-02-23T11:50:58 *** _chris_ has quit IRC 2007-02-23T11:51:17 *** ecn has quit IRC 2007-02-23T11:51:56 Tv: where are you? 2007-02-23T11:52:54 ErikRose: unicode talk left side 2007-02-23T11:53:04 *** teratorn_ has quit IRC 2007-02-23T11:53:07 also, anyone there I have 2 power sockets free in the middle of the crowd 2007-02-23T11:53:12 Sombody should have made up bingo sheets for each talk 2007-02-23T11:53:20 hehe 2007-02-23T11:54:16 Extensions in C here. Anyone else here? 2007-02-23T11:54:30 *** rmunn has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T11:55:34 *** __jt__ has quit IRC 2007-02-23T11:57:03 I felt obligated to attend the Zope panel, since I do that all day. :-) 2007-02-23T11:57:25 But I expect good notes out of the Extensions attenders. ;-) 2007-02-23T11:57:53 will do... 2007-02-23T11:58:45 Did Alex Runion just say Plone 3 isn't coming out till end of 2007? 2007-02-23T11:58:49 *** T2 has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T11:58:50 *** greenfngrs has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T11:59:04 *** RobZoneNet has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T11:59:13 *** Tv has quit IRC 2007-02-23T11:59:27 *** T2 is now known as Tv 2007-02-23T11:59:55 *** __jt__ has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T11:59:57 *** dstanek has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T12:03:14 *** _chris_ has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T12:07:10 *** _chris_ has quit IRC 2007-02-23T12:16:58 *** thatch has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T12:17:12 *** pfein has quit IRC 2007-02-23T12:19:27 the python types in C talk was disappointing 2007-02-23T12:19:41 * ErikRose makes a public call for folks to turn off images in their web browsers. That might lighten the bandwidth saturation a little. 2007-02-23T12:19:46 no discussion at all of pyrex, swig, ctype, psyco... 2007-02-23T12:19:46 wam_: Aww. 2007-02-23T12:20:07 The StateOfZope talk is a little sparse, too. We're finally starting to get some good questions, thogh. 2007-02-23T12:20:21 only a presented a tiny sample of low level C API to python types... no object, just equivalent to bit wise math 2007-02-23T12:20:36 The unicode talk wasn't all that enlightening either 2007-02-23T12:20:38 other than 2007-02-23T12:20:44 internationalization is hard :) 2007-02-23T12:20:48 *** ErikRose has quit IRC 2007-02-23T12:21:10 Though some of the Q&A part has been decent 2007-02-23T12:21:58 * Tv spent some time plugging gettext into nevow xhtml templating 2007-02-23T12:22:10 it ain't always fun 2007-02-23T12:22:13 *** tpollari has quit IRC 2007-02-23T12:22:21 *** gps has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T12:22:24 *** creiht has quit IRC 2007-02-23T12:22:41 anyone but me think they noticed a precipitous temperature drop when they split the rooms? 2007-02-23T12:22:59 yes 2007-02-23T12:23:42 *** jacobkm has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T12:24:29 I didn't till about 30 seconds ago.. room F. 2007-02-23T12:24:46 swig time 2007-02-23T12:24:50 yeah, I'm in the C++ Extensions/SWIG talk. 2007-02-23T12:25:08 ditto. might still be in the wrong room though... 2007-02-23T12:25:19 *** jwhitlark has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T12:25:43 *** ErikRose has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T12:26:21 *** Six`oh`six has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T12:26:34 *** mwh has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T12:26:42 i am hoping the parsing talk will have some valuable nuggets 2007-02-23T12:26:56 hopefully more than the unicode one :) 2007-02-23T12:26:56 It sounded promising. 2007-02-23T12:27:09 I'm here in the parsing talk too 2007-02-23T12:27:19 * ErikRose is in SWIG. 2007-02-23T12:27:27 feeeedbaaack 2007-02-23T12:27:31 *** jacobkm has quit IRC 2007-02-23T12:27:33 *** jacobkm_ has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T12:27:42 setting up a giveaway table right at a choakpoint on the path to meeting room wasn't exactly well thought out 2007-02-23T12:27:53 radix: yeah although the comments were good 2007-02-23T12:27:58 wam_: but free swag! 2007-02-23T12:28:05 yes 2007-02-23T12:28:12 seconds wam_ 2007-02-23T12:28:13 wam_: what are they giving away? 2007-02-23T12:28:20 Rubiks cubes 2007-02-23T12:28:22 *** teratorn has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T12:29:00 swag, what, where? 2007-02-23T12:29:07 I think we missed it 2007-02-23T12:29:12 corner leading to mesquite 2007-02-23T12:29:22 across from registration booth. 2007-02-23T12:29:31 oh, and also path leading to restrooms... 2007-02-23T12:29:46 i hope i can get one before they run out 2007-02-23T12:29:54 Anyoneknows what Chicken is off the top of their head? I'veat least heard of all the others... 2007-02-23T12:30:08 Chicken? I think there's a scheme compiler called Chicken or something :) 2007-02-23T12:30:10 maelztrom: near registration 2007-02-23T12:30:14 radix: where are you now? 2007-02-23T12:30:21 Tv: are you here? 2007-02-23T12:30:26 mwh: parsers, third row, left 2007-02-23T12:30:28 mwh: yeah, at interfaces talk 2007-02-23T12:30:35 radix: how is it? 2007-02-23T12:30:37 mwh: left side of ballroom 2007-02-23T12:30:39 it just started 2007-02-23T12:30:51 i'm in one of the side rooms, decided that i should probably actually finish my talk... 2007-02-23T12:31:05 mwh: what's your talk? 2007-02-23T12:31:06 mwh which is your talk? 2007-02-23T12:31:19 pypy 2007-02-23T12:31:23 mwh: figures 2007-02-23T12:31:27 1:45 in one of the ball rooms 2007-02-23T12:31:40 sorry I'll miss it... want to hit wsgi 2007-02-23T12:31:42 mwh: I'll be there! :-) 2007-02-23T12:31:49 how do i sign up for a lightning talk? 2007-02-23T12:31:59 <__jt__> board by registration desk 2007-02-23T12:32:00 take good notes for me though. :-) 2007-02-23T12:32:26 mwh: the board is just to the right of the reg. desk. 2007-02-23T12:32:48 * ErikRose just realized the PyCon wiki is publically writable. 2007-02-23T12:32:55 * ErikRose feels like an idiot. 2007-02-23T12:33:11 man terrible fount color choice on the title of this slide.... 2007-02-23T12:33:12 ok, cool 2007-02-23T12:33:19 do they not test theire presos? 2007-02-23T12:33:49 The interfaces guy is on speed. 2007-02-23T12:34:01 <__jt__> well when you write them a half hour in advance... 2007-02-23T12:35:09 SWIG talk is informative and well-paced. 2007-02-23T12:35:09 heh 2007-02-23T12:35:51 <__jt__> I think parser generator talk needs to get to the theory soon. 2007-02-23T12:36:12 <__jt__> Yes, that's a grammar, yes, that's an object, yes, that's a command line, wheeeee 2007-02-23T12:36:19 i looked at the parser slides and the motivation was "there is a need to parse languages that are not LL(1)" 2007-02-23T12:36:27 which i didn't think answered the question 2007-02-23T12:37:23 l 2007-02-23T12:37:35 *** teratorn has quit IRC 2007-02-23T12:37:55 is the pycon schedule page designed to flatten browsers? 2007-02-23T12:37:56 seems like he reimplimented a parser generator when there already are several. 2007-02-23T12:37:59 yeah I am pretty unimpressed 2007-02-23T12:38:21 there's a woman crocheting in the second row 2007-02-23T12:38:26 she mst be unimpressed too 2007-02-23T12:38:35 ha 2007-02-23T12:39:28 Or cold. ;-) 2007-02-23T12:39:35 <__jt__> *snort* 2007-02-23T12:39:51 *** shawn has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T12:40:14 hehe... some knitters do it almost instinctivly... very low concentration needed to manipulate their fingers... 2007-02-23T12:40:27 makes chatting on IRC more difficult though 2007-02-23T12:41:16 heh 2007-02-23T12:42:26 for linux folks, check out mdns-scan (it's an ubuntu package)... kind of amazing the stuff folks are announcing from their laptops. 2007-02-23T12:43:20 <__jt__> yeeees, not new. 2007-02-23T12:43:23 plenty of apples 2007-02-23T12:43:53 no wonder the network is running like a slug 2007-02-23T12:43:57 + tba-configimage-pb4oct05.omsdal.com on 172:28:148:175._acrobatSRV._tcp.local 2007-02-23T12:44:04 wtf is adobe smoking? 2007-02-23T12:44:18 *** ecn has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T12:44:37 whaaaat 2007-02-23T12:46:07 * mwh fought with acrobat's auto updater thingy last week 2007-02-23T12:47:33 i'm running web servers for demos on about a zillion ports... 2007-02-23T12:48:00 wow. w--that's some service list 2007-02-23T12:48:04 will there by PyPy openroom bof? 2007-02-23T12:48:49 um, i hadn't planned on organizing one 2007-02-23T12:49:02 i just uploaded my slides btw 2007-02-23T12:49:46 where can I snarf a copy? 2007-02-23T12:50:14 *** bear has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T12:51:04 not sure if you know, but the materials page for your talk indicates: 'Release Form not on File' 2007-02-23T12:51:22 yes, i just saw that 2007-02-23T12:51:29 i'll go sign a form in a minute 2007-02-23T12:54:01 as if http://nedbatchelder.com/text/python-parsers.html wasn't full enough already 2007-02-23T12:55:05 *** pobrien has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T12:55:21 *** creiht has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T12:55:21 *** shawn has quit IRC 2007-02-23T12:55:24 Off to stackless... 2007-02-23T12:55:25 *** pobrien has quit IRC 2007-02-23T12:55:33 *** creiht has quit IRC 2007-02-23T12:55:38 * mwh runs along too 2007-02-23T12:55:44 *** Six`oh`six has quit IRC 2007-02-23T12:55:45 *** mwh has quit IRC 2007-02-23T12:56:22 *** greenfngrs has quit IRC 2007-02-23T12:56:48 <__jt__> yeah... 2007-02-23T12:56:51 *** __jt__ has quit IRC 2007-02-23T12:58:45 *** jwhitlark has left #pycon 2007-02-23T13:00:05 *** thatch_ has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T13:00:37 Am I the only one having trouble with the network? 2007-02-23T13:00:57 Things take a long time for me. 2007-02-23T13:01:01 you mean the whopping 2kps throughput? 2007-02-23T13:01:02 But I'm not having connections drop. 2007-02-23T13:01:29 I had to click "Try Again" 12x to get it to connect... then I couldn't get out or ping anything, just timeouts 2007-02-23T13:01:45 I've not had much problems once I realized my wireless card was still off from my last flight. 2007-02-23T13:01:47 I had 1 bar of signal at the front of F, and couldn't even see the network at the back. 2007-02-23T13:02:09 *** shawn has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T13:02:12 *** ecn has quit IRC 2007-02-23T13:02:50 *** Six`oh`six has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T13:02:54 I have all kinds of bars at the front table of F-J. 2007-02-23T13:03:01 And power. 2007-02-23T13:03:06 And free towels. 2007-02-23T13:03:09 And a pany. 2007-02-23T13:03:15 A pony, too 2007-02-23T13:03:33 pony! 2007-02-23T13:03:35 Oooo, a pony! 2007-02-23T13:03:46 *** __jt__ has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T13:03:54 *** creiht has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T13:04:10 heh. We should make sure the presenters don't get coffee. Talk way too fast. 2007-02-23T13:04:22 haha 2007-02-23T13:04:45 this guy needs his volume control turned up 2007-02-23T13:06:04 *** greenfngrs has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T13:06:35 30 minutes isn't a lot of time to cover anything. 2007-02-23T13:06:41 *** teratorn has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T13:06:48 *** pfein has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T13:07:20 *** oubiwann has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T13:07:23 anyone in stackless? 2007-02-23T13:07:26 *** ErikRose changes topic to "Logs: http://weblion.psu.edu/pyconlogs/" 2007-02-23T13:08:06 I am 2007-02-23T13:08:22 I am as well 2007-02-23T13:08:29 \o 2007-02-23T13:09:14 stackless session is looking super promising 2007-02-23T13:10:22 * ErikRose is having fun. 2007-02-23T13:10:36 So, what, do you need ch to be in scope for both tasklets? 2007-02-23T13:10:43 we hatess the wifi 2007-02-23T13:10:52 ...precioussss 2007-02-23T13:10:59 * pfein is on EVDO 2007-02-23T13:11:35 I have the hardware but the verizon price for it is just annoyingly high. 2007-02-23T13:12:51 *** thatch has quit IRC 2007-02-23T13:12:54 we hatess the tooltips on the schedule page 2007-02-23T13:13:34 truly. they should be links 2007-02-23T13:13:48 I'm getting 500 bytes per second throughput according to iptraf :( 2007-02-23T13:15:11 so... stackless python actually has multiple stacks? 2007-02-23T13:15:13 *** four0four has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T13:15:24 <__jt__> okay, what's new about this... 2007-02-23T13:15:36 I don't mind the tooltips, but no need for it to be ajax... should all be downloaded so net connection wouldn't be needed 2007-02-23T13:15:47 Six`oh`six: i think multiple Python stacks instead of piggy backing the Python stack on the C stack 2007-02-23T13:15:48 the fact that you can do 10s of thousands of these tasklets 2007-02-23T13:16:08 Yeah... tasklets don't have the overhead of threads 2007-02-23T13:16:19 I want to ask him why they recently jettisonned continuations, which, to me, was the best thing about the project. 2007-02-23T13:16:26 Though I though cooperative threading went out with Windows 3.1 :) 2007-02-23T13:16:30 Six`oh`six: my understanding is that stackless mangles the C-level stack to context-switch 2007-02-23T13:16:42 creiht: Nah, it persisted till Mac OS 9. ;-) 2007-02-23T13:16:48 haha 2007-02-23T13:16:50 oh yeah 2007-02-23T13:17:02 I try to forget everything before OS X :) 2007-02-23T13:17:05 <__jt__> well that I would like to hear about. 2007-02-23T13:19:41 sounds kinda like erlang? or certainly like http://docs.python.org/whatsnew/pep-342.html 2007-02-23T13:20:36 it does 2007-02-23T13:21:29 *** rmunn has quit IRC 2007-02-23T13:21:34 it's still possible to kill the world by messing about with shared objects between stacklets, it seems 2007-02-23T13:21:58 *** jacobkm_ has quit IRC 2007-02-23T13:23:22 *** ianbicking has quit IRC 2007-02-23T13:23:56 hmm, are messages on a channel ordered? 2007-02-23T13:24:21 i think so 2007-02-23T13:25:01 <__jt__> I take it we still can't scale across processors either? 2007-02-23T13:26:07 as far as I can tell, there can only be 0 or 1 messages on a channel. The minute something gets put on a channel, that channel blocks. 2007-02-23T13:26:37 i should hope you can have multiple readers and multiple writers. 2007-02-23T13:26:38 Depends on the implementation, I guess. Remember another tasklet could also be blocking on a send() to the same channel. 2007-02-23T13:27:26 gah, "".join() 2007-02-23T13:27:27 hate bad examples 2007-02-23T13:27:43 What's wrong with that? 2007-02-23T13:27:51 i do that all the time :\ 2007-02-23T13:27:57 ErikRose: don't write real world apps that do that to unknown data 2007-02-23T13:28:18 well, it's just an example slide 2007-02-23T13:28:33 yes, and failed to demonstrate streaming results with stackless 2007-02-23T13:28:37 which is the only really interesting bit 2007-02-23T13:28:40 Tv: Just because it could be big, you mean? 2007-02-23T13:28:46 ErikRose: yup 2007-02-23T13:28:58 Ah, of course. 2007-02-23T13:29:18 Well, when you gotta buffer, you gotta buffer. :-) 2007-02-23T13:29:30 (Hopefully you don't gotta.) 2007-02-23T13:29:33 Hmm... Why would I use stackless? Just for streaming? 2007-02-23T13:30:04 jerry_s: if you're asking, you shouldn't ;) 2007-02-23T13:30:18 :) 2007-02-23T13:31:13 <__jt__> okay, this is falling apart fast 2007-02-23T13:31:31 __jt__: stackless definitely won't do SMP for you 2007-02-23T13:31:40 *** thatch_ is now known as thatch 2007-02-23T13:31:48 and right now, as he's saying, it can't really do network IO 2007-02-23T13:31:50 Monkey sock puppets? 2007-02-23T13:32:01 err socket puppets 2007-02-23T13:32:03 :) 2007-02-23T13:32:11 socket pups 2007-02-23T13:32:24 umm, works here: http://www.eve-online.com/ 2007-02-23T13:32:31 playing with sys.modules. always a fun time. 2007-02-23T13:32:40 Six`oh`six: scary. :-) 2007-02-23T13:32:53 oh, now that's cool. 2007-02-23T13:33:00 oh, i could show you some things... that would horrify you. 2007-02-23T13:33:04 erik: you coming to the trac bof tonight? 2007-02-23T13:33:33 alect: Yep 2007-02-23T13:33:46 I definitely need to gear up, since I'm only sprinting for 2 days. 2007-02-23T13:34:24 Six`oh`six: ditto. From my Python-under-ASP-bridged-to-VBScript days. ;-) *pukes* 2007-02-23T13:34:30 With PEAK. ;-) 2007-02-23T13:34:41 :o 2007-02-23T13:34:51 I should do a Python Pathology talk on that before I forget it all. 2007-02-23T13:35:16 <__jt__> really don't want to know about that, thanks. 2007-02-23T13:35:25 Wise choice. 2007-02-23T13:35:33 "I just made that number up" 2007-02-23T13:35:35 man, that would be a great talk. "stuff you can do but probably shouldn't in python" 2007-02-23T13:36:08 I'd go. 2007-02-23T13:36:08 that would be a long, long talk 2007-02-23T13:36:13 *** mwh has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T13:36:45 *** ecn has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T13:36:46 Remember the PyObjC talk where they monkeypatched an ObjC app in realtime? That fit that category. 2007-02-23T13:37:12 s/in realtime/at runtime 2007-02-23T13:37:18 i wish there was a PyObjC talk this year. i think it's pretty neat. 2007-02-23T13:37:27 RUNTIME 2007-02-23T13:37:30 oh my 2007-02-23T13:37:41 cocoa is pretty neat 2007-02-23T13:37:56 I would love to write Cocoa apps for a day job. 2007-02-23T13:38:01 i wish objc had taken over the world instead of c++ 2007-02-23T13:38:24 radix: where are you? 2007-02-23T13:38:57 is monkeypatching a real term? 2007-02-23T13:39:04 yes 2007-02-23T13:39:24 it's a corruption of "guerrilla patching" ? 2007-02-23T13:39:26 i think 2007-02-23T13:39:46 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_patch 2007-02-23T13:39:54 you are not ready for continuations! it is not for you to know! 2007-02-23T13:40:12 These are not the continuations that you are looking for 2007-02-23T13:40:17 If you understood continuations, you'd be programming lisp. 2007-02-23T13:40:27 or ruby 2007-02-23T13:40:28 scheme, surely? 2007-02-23T13:40:31 no continuations in cl 2007-02-23T13:40:38 err, probbaly 2007-02-23T13:40:48 can you tell it's been 10 years since I touched scheme or lisp? 2007-02-23T13:41:03 smalltalk 2007-02-23T13:41:14 and seaside 2007-02-23T13:41:19 who asked that question? 2007-02-23T13:41:23 (require 'python-mode) 2007-02-23T13:41:41 you don't need continuations for seaside type stuff 2007-02-23T13:41:45 ok, *that's* cool 2007-02-23T13:41:45 coroutines are fine 2007-02-23T13:42:00 Yes, in Scheme. 2007-02-23T13:42:05 ... but not actually useful, it turns out 2007-02-23T13:42:24 (12:21:42) Six`oh`six: it's still possible to kill the world by messing about with shared objects between stacklets, it seems 2007-02-23T13:42:33 why didn't anyone heckle him about that? 2007-02-23T13:42:36 mwh: Ah, but are coroutines pickleable? 2007-02-23T13:42:43 ErikRose: in pypy, yes 2007-02-23T13:42:50 mwh: Holy shit. 2007-02-23T13:43:11 i guess if the channels send pickled copies you're safe 2007-02-23T13:43:16 and tasklets, which are really the same thing, are picklable 2007-02-23T13:43:34 why would you pickle if you're inside a single process anyway? 2007-02-23T13:43:36 so if I understood that, you can send a pickle object down a channel, but you can't send an object and have it pickled through the channel? 2007-02-23T13:43:56 Pickleable tasklets would do the trick for the web use case, I think. 2007-02-23T13:44:10 yes, but the web use case is actually a bit false 2007-02-23T13:44:11 ErikRose: not with the current python security model 2007-02-23T13:44:14 How so? 2007-02-23T13:44:17 (it turns out, in practice) 2007-02-23T13:44:30 i'm trying to find a blog entry about it 2007-02-23T13:44:47 ajax removes a lot of the need for this kind of thing 2007-02-23T13:44:52 ErikRose: do not unpickle anything you receive over the network, mmmkay? 2007-02-23T13:44:52 basically, if you send object x with attribute y and both sides of the channel modify y, are they modifying the same object or not? 2007-02-23T13:44:52 the same x 2007-02-23T13:44:52 *** oubiwann has quit IRC 2007-02-23T13:44:54 Tv: I think you misunderstand the continuation-web use case. 2007-02-23T13:45:08 *** shawn has quit IRC 2007-02-23T13:45:15 ErikRose: oh you mean pure server-side programming thing that does the multi-step form dance? 2007-02-23T13:45:40 *** pobrien has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T13:45:41 ErikRose: so you want to pickle to e.g. db to store session state, or what? 2007-02-23T13:45:46 Tv: basically, yes. Anything sent from the client would be a key (crypto-signed if necessary) to a server-side hash full of continuations. 2007-02-23T13:46:06 ErikRose: *shrug* that seems just overcomplex to me 2007-02-23T13:46:19 such pickles are extreeeemely dependent on your code 2007-02-23T13:46:29 yeah, upgrades would be "interesting" 2007-02-23T13:46:32 <__jt__> thinking like "flow" here? 2007-02-23T13:46:43 *** ecn has left #pycon 2007-02-23T13:46:50 It would let you write server-side code like this: commit(formPage1(), formPage2()) or what have you. 2007-02-23T13:47:01 mwh: That's true. 2007-02-23T13:47:03 <__jt__> YES!!! 2007-02-23T13:47:11 here we go: http://smallthought.com/avi/?p=14 2007-02-23T13:47:26 Hmm, I wonder how you would deal with code upgrades. 2007-02-23T13:47:36 OTOH, I expect these sessions would be relatively short-lived. 2007-02-23T13:47:39 (this is the dude who wrote seaside, for context) 2007-02-23T13:47:44 Many web apps use 30-minute ones, for example (obnoxious). 2007-02-23T13:47:51 *clicks* 2007-02-23T13:48:09 Heh, now is the time to use the net; people are moving between rooms. ;-) 2007-02-23T13:48:14 ErikRose: 30 minutes is forever in web world 2007-02-23T13:48:19 *** Six`oh`six has quit IRC 2007-02-23T13:48:20 *** creiht has quit IRC 2007-02-23T13:48:30 Tv: Still, I hate going to lunch and having my work be destroyed. 2007-02-23T13:48:31 *** mwh has quit IRC 2007-02-23T13:48:39 no, I mean 2007-02-23T13:48:50 if you kill sessions from last 30mins by upgrading, that hits a lot of users 2007-02-23T13:48:56 But if 30 minutes is forever, then the code-change-invalidates-your-continuation problem is moot. 2007-02-23T13:48:57 lunch! 2007-02-23T13:49:01 *** Tv has quit IRC 2007-02-23T13:49:11 *** ErikRose has quit IRC 2007-02-23T13:49:12 *** greenfngrs has quit IRC 2007-02-23T13:49:27 *** __jt__ has quit IRC 2007-02-23T13:57:35 *** oubiwann has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T14:00:26 lighting talks during lunch... not a great idea for notes takers 2007-02-23T14:01:14 *** _moshez has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T14:05:11 need some gobby-powered collaborative note-taking 2007-02-23T14:05:26 <_moshez> grover2: indicate location, citizen 2007-02-23T14:05:28 *** teratorn has quit IRC 2007-02-23T14:05:47 in meatspace? 2007-02-23T14:05:47 I'm doing note taking in freemind, which it were collaborative 2007-02-23T14:06:03 freemind - mac app? 2007-02-23T14:06:10 <_moshez> I believe webapp 2007-02-23T14:06:11 *** pobrien has quit IRC 2007-02-23T14:06:26 <_moshez> radiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiix\ 2007-02-23T14:06:30 freemind, java (standalone) mind mapper 2007-02-23T14:06:33 <_moshez> radix: please be here and be all squiiiish 2007-02-23T14:08:05 *** cmlenz has quit IRC 2007-02-23T14:08:33 damn there are a lot of popele here 2007-02-23T14:08:42 *** oubiwann has quit IRC 2007-02-23T14:09:38 *** ianbicking has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T14:10:35 *** pfein has quit IRC 2007-02-23T14:10:48 <_moshez> hello ian 2007-02-23T14:12:20 *** dijix has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T14:13:23 *** mwh has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T14:13:57 *** jerry_s has quit IRC 2007-02-23T14:14:18 *** greenfngrs has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T14:14:31 *** coderanger_ has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T14:15:32 <_moshez> mwh: froop 2007-02-23T14:15:45 oy 2007-02-23T14:16:20 pycon drinking game: A shot for every company that is using python to change the world 2007-02-23T14:16:38 yikes 2007-02-23T14:16:52 *** thatch_ has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T14:16:55 <_moshez> wam: you should totally drink for B-hive then 2007-02-23T14:17:12 *** ianbicking has quit IRC 2007-02-23T14:17:13 <_moshez> wam: we use Python to cause managing web application farms from magic to science 2007-02-23T14:17:17 <_moshez> yay for the world 2007-02-23T14:17:26 *** thatch has quit IRC 2007-02-23T14:18:58 *** shawn has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T14:19:30 that's not a drinking game, that's a suicide pact 2007-02-23T14:19:34 this is a very bad talk :) 2007-02-23T14:19:45 <_moshez> my god 2007-02-23T14:19:56 <_moshez> it's like he read "how to give bad lightning talks" 2007-02-23T14:19:58 <_moshez> and went "omg! yes" 2007-02-23T14:20:02 man, pr group handing off preso to engineer - a bad idea 2007-02-23T14:20:04 whos lightning now? 2007-02-23T14:20:10 activestate 2007-02-23T14:20:16 activestate 2007-02-23T14:20:18 <_moshez> RAAAAAR 2007-02-23T14:20:22 <_moshez> dude stop with the lilting 2007-02-23T14:20:46 <_moshez> WOW multi language faaaaaailes 2007-02-23T14:20:56 <_moshez> as opposed to, you know, files 2007-02-23T14:21:03 aaaaaah 2007-02-23T14:21:13 screaming on irc helps not scream in the room 2007-02-23T14:21:28 <_moshez> we laugh because crying is too loud 2007-02-23T14:21:46 man, would be so much better if he had brought a few hundred CDs 2007-02-23T14:21:53 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 2007-02-23T14:21:54 *** pfein has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T14:21:55 <_moshez> an *EXTENSIBLE* architecture 2007-02-23T14:21:59 <_moshez> WOW 2007-02-23T14:22:02 <_moshez> it is EXTENSIBLE 2007-02-23T14:22:10 <_moshez> we can tell, because he said so VERY SLOW 2007-02-23T14:22:27 <_moshez> yes content means you can WIN STUFF 2007-02-23T14:22:35 _moshez speaks for the hive mind. 2007-02-23T14:22:37 <_moshez> I wish to be deaf now :( 2007-02-23T14:22:41 * mwh sticks his fingers in his ears and hides under the table 2007-02-23T14:23:01 haha 2007-02-23T14:23:01 <_moshez> I am hurting 2007-02-23T14:23:16 <_moshez> but on the other hand, I want to learn more about how komodo can improve my experience 2007-02-23T14:23:23 <_moshez> WOW 2007-02-23T14:23:28 man, new category in my mindmap... talks to avoid... 2007-02-23T14:24:20 are lots of people running bittorrent or something? 2007-02-23T14:24:50 i am watching _moshez type next to me and waiting for his lines to show up 2007-02-23T14:27:08 *** dijix has quit IRC 2007-02-23T14:28:11 how is the weather in dallas? 2007-02-23T14:28:57 weather in the lecture hall is a bit chilly with the A/C... that's all I've seen so far... yesterday was nice though 2007-02-23T14:29:24 *** mwh has quit IRC 2007-02-23T14:33:41 who is this? 2007-02-23T14:33:54 *** tpollari has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T14:34:40 thunderstorm heading in tonight, should pass by morning 2007-02-23T14:35:29 oh, these guys: http://www.merchantcircle.com/corporate/ 2007-02-23T14:36:37 *** tpollari has quit IRC 2007-02-23T14:39:55 *** Tv has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T14:40:06 Ok, last year lightening talks were the hilight (for me) of the conference... these have been fairly painful. 2007-02-23T14:40:21 wam_: *sponsor* lightning talks 2007-02-23T14:40:30 ahh... ok. 2007-02-23T14:41:15 I TOTALLY want to work in Bagalore. 2007-02-23T14:41:19 seriously. 2007-02-23T14:41:38 will they do relocation? And pay US wages for their expats? 2007-02-23T14:42:27 d00d, you don't need US wages, you can live like a king on a few grand. And besides, it's exotic. 2007-02-23T14:43:07 at least more exotic than Dallas. 2007-02-23T14:43:09 *** benbangert_ has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T14:44:43 What is that? 2007-02-23T14:46:02 anyone in/around or looking to move near the Cleveland area? 2007-02-23T14:46:20 * pfein is hiring too 2007-02-23T14:47:46 I'm moving to Cinci in about two weeks 2007-02-23T14:48:12 *** tpollari has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T14:48:21 *** shawn has quit IRC 2007-02-23T14:49:52 *** _moshez has quit IRC 2007-02-23T14:50:28 *** ErikRose has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T14:51:00 *** _moshez has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T14:51:54 *** four0four has quit IRC 2007-02-23T14:52:54 *** ubernostrum has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T14:53:15 *** benbangert_ has quit IRC 2007-02-23T14:54:00 WSGI talk here... everyone else? 2007-02-23T14:54:11 * ubernostrum is also sitting in on WSGI. 2007-02-23T14:54:16 PyPy 2007-02-23T14:54:26 a series of tubes! 2007-02-23T14:55:15 I like the illustrations... 2007-02-23T14:55:32 Crap: OtOt cab oridyct a vubart tgat 2007-02-23T14:55:34 very xpipeman like 2007-02-23T14:55:39 I need a hand misposition fixer. :-) 2007-02-23T14:55:44 *** pfein has quit IRC 2007-02-23T14:56:18 *** pfein has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T14:57:42 please tell me that Ian's slides are/will be up on the web 2007-02-23T14:58:21 *** ptme has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T14:58:38 *** jerry_s has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T14:59:10 *** coderanger_ has quit IRC 2007-02-23T14:59:45 *** four0four has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T14:59:55 *** ubernostrum has quit IRC 2007-02-23T15:00:58 wsgi talk any good? 2007-02-23T15:01:23 *** _moshez has quit IRC 2007-02-23T15:01:38 *** dijix has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T15:02:13 *** ptme has left #pycon 2007-02-23T15:02:18 too early to tell, but I've always enjoyed Ian's talks, so I'm going to say 'yes' 2007-02-23T15:02:20 I finally got a network connection again 2007-02-23T15:03:18 *** _moshez has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T15:03:21 * _moshez froops 2007-02-23T15:03:27 *** Six`oh`six has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T15:03:35 <_moshez> finally managed to get a connection 2007-02-23T15:03:54 <_moshez> which room is the pypy stuff 2007-02-23T15:03:55 <_moshez> in 2007-02-23T15:04:01 mesquite 2007-02-23T15:04:07 closest to the foyer 2007-02-23T15:04:11 <_moshez> thanks 2007-02-23T15:04:15 *** thatch_ has quit IRC 2007-02-23T15:04:15 * _moshez contemplates 2007-02-23T15:04:24 <_moshez> I should probably rack up some more power 2007-02-23T15:04:34 <_moshez> before I let go of my power 2007-02-23T15:04:38 <_moshez> :) 2007-02-23T15:04:39 *** __jt__ has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T15:05:12 <_moshez> *** CTCP PING reply from _moshez: 10 seconds 2007-02-23T15:05:15 <_moshez> my god :(( 2007-02-23T15:05:21 <_moshez> this is kinda horrible 2007-02-23T15:05:47 <_moshez> ok so someone in the pypy talk 2007-02-23T15:05:50 <_moshez> summarize :) 2007-02-23T15:05:52 heh 2007-02-23T15:05:53 Yip 2007-02-23T15:06:11 PyPy compiles Python down to as much C as it can. :-) 2007-02-23T15:06:20 and they don't like refcounting ;) 2007-02-23T15:06:35 slow network is slow 2007-02-23T15:06:49 He's talking a lot about the RTyper, which is some kind of type-inferry thing. 2007-02-23T15:06:52 <_moshez> roooor make network faster 2007-02-23T15:07:02 <_moshez> the rtyper is weird magic :( 2007-02-23T15:07:39 Ooo, they're almost done with the version that spits out JVM bytecode. 2007-02-23T15:07:46 Thus, it is the next Jython. 2007-02-23T15:07:50 heh 2007-02-23T15:07:51 *** bear is now known as bear_afk 2007-02-23T15:08:06 very cool... 2007-02-23T15:08:18 *** thatch has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T15:08:33 greetings thatch 2007-02-23T15:08:47 *** benbangert has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T15:09:01 yo 2007-02-23T15:09:22 don't tell them to spit out parrot code 2007-02-23T15:09:26 I'm still through my phone due to network issues. 2007-02-23T15:09:30 <_moshez> whyyyyyy 2007-02-23T15:09:32 javascript backend is interesting 2007-02-23T15:10:20 they should compile to .NET obviously... 2007-02-23T15:11:01 *** coderanger_ has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T15:11:19 Is LLVM in use by anybody? 2007-02-23T15:11:38 i've not heard of it outside pypy 2007-02-23T15:11:59 <_moshez> duuuuuude 2007-02-23T15:11:59 <_moshez> slowest network in the universe 2007-02-23T15:12:00 I wondered if Parrot had got renamed, but I don't think so. 2007-02-23T15:12:44 at least the network /works at all/ -- were you here last year _moshez? 2007-02-23T15:13:01 they seriously need some QoS 2007-02-23T15:13:07 and inline proxies 2007-02-23T15:13:07 (sorry, that sounded harsh, not intended) 2007-02-23T15:13:19 * pfein enjoys 66kB/s downloads on EVDO 2007-02-23T15:13:40 pfein: :P 2007-02-23T15:13:46 and you or your employer pay for it ;) 2007-02-23T15:13:46 pfein: You could sell seats on your network for $10 each. ;-) 2007-02-23T15:13:51 <_moshez> I was, actually, here 2007-02-23T15:14:07 <_moshez> and I have to say 2007-02-23T15:14:11 <_moshez> situation: not so much improved 2007-02-23T15:14:21 this has been much better for me... 2007-02-23T15:14:21 at least it supports 11a 2007-02-23T15:14:26 and G 2007-02-23T15:14:38 I guess I'll take slow but connected over not connected =) 2007-02-23T15:14:44 I've not been dropped since associating this morning. 2007-02-23T15:14:58 Not I 2007-02-23T15:15:01 Nor I, I mean 2007-02-23T15:15:21 gps: $60/month, its not that bad - if you figure $30/month consumer DSL + random coffee shop fees, it's about breakeven 2007-02-23T15:15:41 *** dijix has quit IRC 2007-02-23T15:15:41 *** benbangert has quit IRC 2007-02-23T15:15:58 if i were mobile regularly out of range of free access i'd consider it 2007-02-23T15:15:59 pfein: aren't there restrictions in the TOS about no streaming media/VOIP, etc? 2007-02-23T15:16:13 tpollari: dunno, i do whatever I like & no one's yelled at me yet 2007-02-23T15:16:18 *** dijix has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T15:16:34 fair enough 2007-02-23T15:17:00 <_moshez> ok gonna lay off the power and try to sneak into pypy talk 2007-02-23T15:17:05 <_moshez> wish me luck 2007-02-23T15:17:06 err, fare 2007-02-23T15:17:12 err 2007-02-23T15:17:19 damn it all 2007-02-23T15:18:30 *** creiht has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T15:18:34 lol 2007-02-23T15:18:49 He gets the most applause of the day for implementing do...until syntax. :-) 2007-02-23T15:19:00 ErikRose: yeah, but that'd require figuring out how to do bridging & I'm lazy... 2007-02-23T15:19:02 *** __jt__ has quit IRC 2007-02-23T15:19:12 He did it as a module: you "import enabledo", and away you go. 2007-02-23T15:20:42 ugh, do until 2007-02-23T15:21:54 *** dijix has quit IRC 2007-02-23T15:22:39 <_moshez> why do you ugh :( 2007-02-23T15:23:05 <_moshez> ok now I'm far in the back 2007-02-23T15:23:09 <_moshez> and watching tracebacks 2007-02-23T15:23:17 <_moshez> are the tracebackks planne 2007-02-23T15:23:18 Welcome. :-) 2007-02-23T15:23:19 <_moshez> d 2007-02-23T15:23:20 no 2007-02-23T15:23:23 <_moshez> oh 2007-02-23T15:23:31 <_moshez> oh bub&bob 2007-02-23T15:23:34 <_moshez> call 2007-02-23T15:23:35 <_moshez> cool 2007-02-23T15:23:58 <_moshez> is it the JS backend thingy? 2007-02-23T15:24:02 So that's apparently written in Python and PIL. 2007-02-23T15:24:03 Yes. 2007-02-23T15:24:06 <_moshez> COOL 2007-02-23T15:24:07 I have NFI how that works. 2007-02-23T15:24:10 * _moshez dances 2007-02-23T15:24:18 <_moshez> there's a JS python interpreter 2007-02-23T15:24:26 Is all the rendering happening on the server? 2007-02-23T15:24:32 <_moshez> I have NFI 2007-02-23T15:24:36 <_moshez> probably not though 2007-02-23T15:25:01 Ah, it looks like the PYthon was written with the web in mind. 2007-02-23T15:25:26 <_moshez> ah 2007-02-23T15:25:32 It moves PNGs around and such. They didn't bridge a sprite layer to JavaScript or anything. 2007-02-23T15:25:39 <_moshez> sadness :) 2007-02-23T15:25:42 Still very cool. :-) 2007-02-23T15:25:51 <_moshez> but still, logic from python=cool 2007-02-23T15:25:52 Reminds of the JS Lemmings. 2007-02-23T15:25:53 <_moshez> yah 2007-02-23T15:25:57 <_moshez> woo lemmings 2007-02-23T15:26:00 js can do all that 2007-02-23T15:26:22 <_moshez> gps: C can do everythign cPython does 2007-02-23T15:26:26 <_moshez> that's not the point 2007-02-23T15:26:34 <_moshez> the point is that you can write code in Python for browsers 2007-02-23T15:26:51 RIght. 2007-02-23T15:27:08 yeah its spiff 2007-02-23T15:27:20 * _moshez dances happily 2007-02-23T15:27:20 *** shawn__ has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T15:27:34 was that the pypy talk? 2007-02-23T15:27:38 <_moshez> yeah 2007-02-23T15:27:42 slick... I wish I had hit it rather the wsgi one. 2007-02-23T15:27:46 echoes of the google java dhtml ui generator 2007-02-23T15:27:50 <_moshez> heheh wsgi 2007-02-23T15:27:55 alect: +1 2007-02-23T15:27:57 except of course, in a cool language instead of java ;) 2007-02-23T15:28:06 Oog, I forgot Google's was for Java. 2007-02-23T15:28:06 I liked the wsgi talk, but not a whole of 'take away tech' I can use. 2007-02-23T15:28:17 <_moshez> yay gc is fun 2007-02-23T15:28:18 Python's actually more like JS than Java is. 2007-02-23T15:28:19 <_moshez> perhaps 2007-02-23T15:28:20 There's also pyjamas 2007-02-23T15:28:21 gsm cell phone interference on the amps all over this conf 2007-02-23T15:28:29 What's pyjamas? 2007-02-23T15:28:37 GWT for python basically 2007-02-23T15:28:45 Prolog is dynamic? 2007-02-23T15:28:46 Still in early stages 2007-02-23T15:28:53 <_moshez> prolog is, I believe 2007-02-23T15:28:58 Neat. 2007-02-23T15:29:27 *** tpollari has quit IRC 2007-02-23T15:30:29 gwt? 2007-02-23T15:30:34 Google Web Toolkit 2007-02-23T15:30:42 * ErikRose runs to Ballroom. 2007-02-23T15:30:52 http://pyjamas.pyworks.org/ 2007-02-23T15:30:53 <_moshez> why do people run to ballroom 2007-02-23T15:30:54 <_moshez> ? 2007-02-23T15:30:56 someone did a pygwt 2007-02-23T15:31:13 *** creiht has quit IRC 2007-02-23T15:31:16 *** greenfngrs has quit IRC 2007-02-23T15:31:30 yeah that's what I was thinking of 2007-02-23T15:31:35 pyjamas 2007-02-23T15:31:45 I thought it still used gwt tho, ultimately 2007-02-23T15:32:37 *** shawn__ has quit IRC 2007-02-23T15:34:02 *** rmunn has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T15:34:10 *** Six`oh`six has quit IRC 2007-02-23T15:34:52 *** creiht has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T15:37:20 *** greenfngrs has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T15:38:09 wohooo.... web smack down! 2007-02-23T15:38:14 *** Six`oh`six has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T15:38:16 <_moshez> so omg 2007-02-23T15:38:17 PLY here. 2007-02-23T15:38:24 <_moshez> yes 2007-02-23T15:38:35 no love for Parrot... pretty low attendance 2007-02-23T15:38:40 <_moshez> going offline, power low 2007-02-23T15:38:40 <_moshez> see ya all physically :) 2007-02-23T15:38:47 *** _moshez has quit IRC 2007-02-23T15:38:56 no love for ply either, low attend 2007-02-23T15:39:07 six'oh'six: my thoughts and prayers are with you 2007-02-23T15:39:32 looks like the love is in web frameworks - people standing in the back. 2007-02-23T15:39:45 i expected that 2007-02-23T15:39:59 There are seats in the front right. 2007-02-23T15:40:27 *** ubernostrum has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T15:40:36 jerry_s: We just want to see a big fight. ;-) 2007-02-23T15:40:44 Anyone who wants to see the bloodshed but isn't in here, I'm live-blogging the frameworks panel. 2007-02-23T15:40:56 where? 2007-02-23T15:40:56 http://www.b-list.org/weblog/2007/02/23/pycon-2007-web-frameworks-panel <-- please don't kill my server :) 2007-02-23T15:41:03 I have $5 that Adrian body slams Kevin on the table 2007-02-23T15:41:06 :) 2007-02-23T15:41:08 We don't have the bandwidth to kill your server. :-) 2007-02-23T15:41:23 paste key quotes into here. :-) 2007-02-23T15:41:28 uber: nice. :) 2007-02-23T15:41:45 you would figure the wireless would be better considering last years was pretty bad and they would of learned 2007-02-23T15:41:52 Huh, what--I just submitted that blog link to /. :-P 2007-02-23T15:41:53 my god, Perl 6 is six years old. 2007-02-23T15:41:59 Whoa, RobZoneNet. 2007-02-23T15:42:10 http://link.toolbot.com/toolbot.com/66290 <-- Paul Bissex thoughtfully automated the refreshing for me. 2007-02-23T15:42:12 Six`oh`six: Holy carp. 2007-02-23T15:42:25 it's the Duke Nukem Forever of languages 2007-02-23T15:42:26 Does it run, except in Haskell? 2007-02-23T15:42:54 (and us maniacs over at WebLion. :-)) 2007-02-23T15:43:03 (working with Zope, that is) 2007-02-23T15:43:13 ErikRose: :) 2007-02-23T15:43:58 Holy carp, they got everything up there. Pylons, even. 2007-02-23T15:43:59 it seems like the VM is getting there... he's not talking about the Perl 6 compiler. 2007-02-23T15:44:46 Perl 6 VM does support continuations though, unlike Stackless. hmph 2007-02-23T15:45:32 Rock on. 2007-02-23T15:45:45 *** shawn has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T15:45:49 I'm slowly reading that Seaside post [http://smallthought.com/avi/?p=14]. 2007-02-23T15:46:12 No fair—there aren't many keywords in Python. ;-) 2007-02-23T15:46:22 heeheehee 2007-02-23T15:46:27 And what's up with "print" and "raise" being statements, anyway? 2007-02-23T15:46:38 * ErikRose goes wildly off topic. 2007-02-23T15:47:05 "It is a well-known fact that there are more web frameworks for Python than there are reserved keywords in Python." 2007-02-23T15:47:13 print really has to be a function or expression. 2007-02-23T15:47:37 amen, brother. 2007-02-23T15:47:39 I've actually wanted "raise" to be one, too, so I could "raise(*someTuple)" 2007-02-23T15:47:58 There's probably some major reason I'm missing. 2007-02-23T15:48:13 ErikRose: it's not lisp? 2007-02-23T15:48:19 pfein: Right. :-) 2007-02-23T15:48:30 I wish it were. 2007-02-23T15:48:40 We're going to have a Python vs. Lisp open space tomorrow. It's on the board. 2007-02-23T15:48:46 4:40 in Big Tree 2, I think 2007-02-23T15:49:03 or Bent Tree or something 2007-02-23T15:49:10 why wouldn't you create an Exception subclass? 2007-02-23T15:49:26 raise SomethingBroke(*args) 2007-02-23T15:50:35 I wanted to do something akin to just plain "raise", raising something with an explicitly passed-in traceback, etc. 2007-02-23T15:50:44 I don't remember the specifics right now. 2007-02-23T15:51:23 I'm still waiting for someone to make a web framework that doesn't suck. I think that's why we have so many. I think half of the problem is that documentation usually sucks. 2007-02-23T15:51:39 Yes, that's Zope's weakness. 2007-02-23T15:51:54 jerry_s: It's getting better 2007-02-23T15:52:08 I want something that makes the crap/boilerplate easy, but doesn't do everything for you. 2007-02-23T15:52:12 jerry wants Rails in Python 2007-02-23T15:52:13 django has good docs for most things 2007-02-23T15:52:24 heck, i'd like it too, actually 2007-02-23T15:52:29 pfein and Six`oh`six : I think you want pylons then :) 2007-02-23T15:52:33 heh, not quite. The documentation for Rails sucks pretty bad, too. 2007-02-23T15:52:34 Like, I know how to write SQL (not that I have a database anyway), I don't need an ORM. 2007-02-23T15:52:42 creiht: yeah? 2007-02-23T15:52:47 yes 2007-02-23T15:52:52 * pfein looks 2007-02-23T15:52:53 At least that is my opinion :) 2007-02-23T15:53:04 I'm sure you will get more opinions here than keywords in Python :) 2007-02-23T15:53:06 I had never heard of pylons before today 2007-02-23T15:53:10 i was actually thinking about creating a new framework called "Python On Crack" 2007-02-23T15:53:19 rotflol 2007-02-23T15:54:27 I'd try it. :-) 2007-02-23T15:55:44 What's python.org using now? 2007-02-23T15:55:47 Pyramid or something? 2007-02-23T15:55:58 *** Six`oh`six has quit IRC 2007-02-23T15:56:00 that's what thatch told me 2007-02-23T15:56:21 Someday I'm going to update my web site (still on the 1999 version). 2007-02-23T15:57:21 A lot of pydotorg is built with Pyramid, yes. 2007-02-23T15:57:34 the wiki parts use moinmoin iirc 2007-02-23T15:57:40 Spyce I never heard of. 2007-02-23T15:58:23 I do a lot of Zope work, and I wonder about the lack of a dispatcher: the URL space has to be organized like the object space (or vice versa). 2007-02-23T15:58:33 ErikRose: It's one of the older python server pages templating systems 2007-02-23T15:58:35 Pyramid is not really a framework, it's something you run as part of a build step 2007-02-23T15:58:42 Could we get a list of the Python keywords up here? ;-) 2007-02-23T15:59:04 thatch: ...which is why I was looking at it: I don't have any RAM on my VPS. 2007-02-23T15:59:15 with reference to the "more frameworks than reserved words" comment? 2007-02-23T15:59:19 right 2007-02-23T15:59:30 python -c "import keyword; print keyword.kwlist" 2007-02-23T15:59:31 Fight! Fight! 2007-02-23T15:59:32 spyce has been around for a while... .a lot of python.org and pycon.org now used django as well 2007-02-23T15:59:42 tact much? 2007-02-23T15:59:42 *** matt_c has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T16:00:26 ErikRose: I can't speak terribly well of it. First, you _must_ use yaml to store your data. Second it can't incremental build. Third, it has a lot of dependencies (including an BeautifulSoup 2.x, not the current version) 2007-02-23T16:00:33 The truth hurts sometimes? :) 2007-02-23T16:00:48 Errrrm. Thanks, thatch; good to know 2007-02-23T16:00:48 *** mwh has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T16:00:49 that's the tactful version of what thatch said to me 2007-02-23T16:00:58 I think I want more interactivity with my users, anyway. 2007-02-23T16:00:59 let's just say, his other version was more colourful ;) 2007-02-23T16:01:15 Did he use "keywords"? 2007-02-23T16:01:41 ugh, can you use pylons w/o paste? 2007-02-23T16:01:56 cherrypy? :) 2007-02-23T16:01:57 Not really.... It's built off of it 2007-02-23T16:02:15 pfein: Are you talking about the glue stuff, or the server? 2007-02-23T16:02:50 creiht: any of it. 2007-02-23T16:03:08 ErikRose: I would put in the effort on a great makefile, and use gnu make rather than Pyramid. 2007-02-23T16:03:13 pfein: Since pylons is so wsgi based, it relies on paste for doing most of the glue 2007-02-23T16:03:15 CherryPy Guy says "if anyone wants to take on the CherryPy Session module and make one that actually works *well*, feel free." 2007-02-23T16:03:28 Since it is wsgi based it can run on most any server 2007-02-23T16:03:28 creiht: wsgi!=paste 2007-02-23T16:03:35 right 2007-02-23T16:03:44 but paste is a set of tools that makes wsgi simple 2007-02-23T16:03:50 heh, the moderator for this panel rocks. 2007-02-23T16:04:00 Tyring not to reinvent a wheel that is already well built :) 2007-02-23T16:04:16 jerry_s: I'm honestly surprised he was last minute, he is good. 2007-02-23T16:04:19 He does. 2007-02-23T16:04:42 If you want to do a full wsgi stack... paste makes it a lot easier 2007-02-23T16:05:02 ugh, paste sucks (from my perspective). 2007-02-23T16:05:05 pfein: What do you not like about paste? 2007-02-23T16:05:06 really, it's the eggs. 2007-02-23T16:06:07 "I need a CGI page" and they said "Use Zope!" 2007-02-23T16:06:15 *** jkocherhans has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T16:06:19 heh 2007-02-23T16:06:29 creiht: I run my own servers - I don't need to create an isolated install for each web app. 2007-02-23T16:06:31 he must have asked on #python :) 2007-02-23T16:06:53 pfein: As far as I know you don't have to use eggs if you don't want to 2007-02-23T16:07:00 creiht: hmm... 2007-02-23T16:07:15 The main thing that it uses paste for are: 2007-02-23T16:07:19 1. wsgi glue 2007-02-23T16:07:44 2. project creation (similar to how you manage projects with Django or TG) 2007-02-23T16:07:55 3. A dev server 2007-02-23T16:08:01 2. ok, stop right there. 2007-02-23T16:08:12 ok 2007-02-23T16:08:39 I already have a devel & deployment process I'm quite happy with. 2007-02-23T16:08:57 see, this is what drives me nuts about the webframeworks - I just want to pick one and get some work done, without having to drink a whole gallon of koolaid 2007-02-23T16:09:51 "The plethora of web frameworks seems perlish." 2007-02-23T16:10:11 pfein: Well if you already have that, then just pick a templating language you like and go for it :) 2007-02-23T16:10:45 Gall darn web. 2007-02-23T16:10:46 there's a lot more to a webserver than a templating language - url routing, sessions, shared resources & glue. 2007-02-23T16:11:01 I miss the UI richness I had back in 1984 grumblegrumblegrumble. 2007-02-23T16:11:01 s/webserver/webapp/ 2007-02-23T16:11:02 i like Kid and Genshi :-) 2007-02-23T16:11:36 Right... well pylons brings that together in a sane setup for you 2007-02-23T16:11:49 It's not some rigid structure that you can't change 2007-02-23T16:11:56 Just a set of sensible defaults 2007-02-23T16:11:57 what does Pylons use for templating? 2007-02-23T16:12:05 It supports buffet 2007-02-23T16:12:10 so that you can use any 2007-02-23T16:12:16 that supports the buffet plugin 2007-02-23T16:12:18 like TG 2007-02-23T16:12:31 It is configured out of the box for Myghty 2007-02-23T16:12:32 ah cool 2007-02-23T16:12:35 for templating 2007-02-23T16:12:48 And that will soon change to Mako (Myghty 2.0 basically) 2007-02-23T16:13:03 i really need to jump back into TG...been way too long :-( 2007-02-23T16:15:25 Heh. I think the OS wars is 1) os x, 2) linux (specifically *ubuntu), 3) windows. 2007-02-23T16:15:45 ouch 2007-02-23T16:16:05 "having python produce javascript is like using a motorized wheelchair b/c you're too lazy to walk" 2007-02-23T16:16:11 oooh 2007-02-23T16:16:11 hehe 2007-02-23T16:16:13 another fight 2007-02-23T16:16:28 Yeah, what's up with this necessary "support" for AJAX? 2007-02-23T16:16:32 the python-dev panel has me motivated to submit patches...but making tests is a pain without a mock library 2007-02-23T16:16:48 bring on the wheelchair baby, cuz I'm a fat muthaf**ker that wants ta ride. 2007-02-23T16:16:51 * ubernostrum loves the wheelchair quote. 2007-02-23T16:16:54 That's like a web server "supporting" HTML 4.1. 2007-02-23T16:17:00 * mwh reads what people said in here during his talk 2007-02-23T16:17:05 jerry_s: lol 2007-02-23T16:18:32 *** dcf has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T16:18:47 ErikRose: apple use LLVM 2007-02-23T16:18:48 Preach it, bro. 2007-02-23T16:18:52 *** dcf is now known as DuncCF 2007-02-23T16:18:53 (Jim) 2007-02-23T16:19:02 mwh: what fer? 2007-02-23T16:19:08 I enjoyed your PyPy talk, btw. 2007-02-23T16:19:16 I'm gonna call my webframework "Batteries Not Included" 2007-02-23T16:19:36 KSS, btw, is like "stick CSS classes on stuff, and they'll automagically get certain JavaScripty behaviors". 2007-02-23T16:19:46 I'm gonna use "Python on Crack" because of the name. Sorry. :) 2007-02-23T16:19:46 dynamically recompiling software implementations of opengl shaders not supported by the hardware 2007-02-23T16:20:11 and almost certainly for the iphone, though i don't think they've actually come out and said that yet 2007-02-23T16:20:58 Regarding Plone, there's also some thing called AZAX. Don't ask me. 2007-02-23T16:21:04 *** ubernostrum has quit IRC 2007-02-23T16:21:17 ErikRose: http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/pipermail/llvmdev/2006-August/006492.html 2007-02-23T16:21:27 *** jkocherhans has quit IRC 2007-02-23T16:21:37 *** Tv has quit IRC 2007-02-23T16:21:52 *** creiht has quit IRC 2007-02-23T16:21:56 or google's cache thereof, as the site doesn't seem to be working 2007-02-23T16:22:14 *** rmunn has quit IRC 2007-02-23T16:22:58 *** __jt__ has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T16:23:20 606: what you going to next? 2007-02-23T16:24:22 *** __jt__ has quit IRC 2007-02-23T16:26:42 *** ErikRose has quit IRC 2007-02-23T16:28:50 *** shawn has quit IRC 2007-02-23T16:33:19 WhatWhat here 2007-02-23T16:38:37 *** sean__ has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T16:38:53 *** ErikRose has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T16:39:21 *** mwh has quit IRC 2007-02-23T16:39:53 *** benbangert has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T16:40:12 *** four0four has quit IRC 2007-02-23T16:40:17 a bad name 2007-02-23T16:40:45 *** T2 has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T16:42:10 *** T2 is now known as Tv 2007-02-23T16:42:39 I hate people who keep stealing my nick even if I regularly boot them off. 2007-02-23T16:42:58 *** creiht has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T16:43:31 Regarding the Imageworks talk... Scheme crashes and burns. 2007-02-23T16:43:53 *** Six`oh`six has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T16:43:53 this implies that there are people you do not hate.... 2007-02-23T16:45:00 *** dijix has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T16:45:38 *** shawn has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T16:46:22 anyone know the official scoop on the wireless? 2007-02-23T16:47:01 grover2: What about it 2007-02-23T16:47:18 *** pfein has quit IRC 2007-02-23T16:47:59 *** pfein has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T16:49:57 *** DuncCF has quit IRC 2007-02-23T16:50:28 Every time I see his slideshow do a vertical wipe, I cringe: it's the exact wipe rate of the OS X kernel panic. 2007-02-23T16:50:39 Skinner would be proud. 2007-02-23T16:50:49 *** bryan_ has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T16:51:33 *** bryan_ has left #pycon 2007-02-23T16:51:48 *** dijix has quit IRC 2007-02-23T16:53:14 RobZoneNet: remind me to profile Zope to see why it takes so long to start up. 2007-02-23T16:53:18 Or do it while I'm gone. :-) 2007-02-23T16:54:07 *** bryan_ has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T16:54:17 ErikRose: ok...it does take forever 2007-02-23T16:55:06 We're apparently going to go all night here. 2007-02-23T16:55:17 The open sessions look better than many of the sessions. 2007-02-23T16:55:24 ("Closed sessions?") 2007-02-23T16:55:32 Proprietary sessions ;) 2007-02-23T16:56:58 ErikRose: is there an online version of the open sessions? 2007-02-23T16:57:07 I heard cherrypy could use some better sessions :) 2007-02-23T16:57:13 benbangert: I haven't run across some. 2007-02-23T16:57:17 one, rather 2007-02-23T16:57:41 *** bryan_ has quit IRC 2007-02-23T16:57:58 http://us.pycon.org/TX2007/OpenSpaceTalks, but nobody's put anything on it 2007-02-23T16:58:05 *** four0four has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T16:58:15 benbangert: Someone posted this earlier 2007-02-23T16:58:15 http://www.b-list.org/weblog/2007/02/23/pycon-2007-web-frameworks-panel 2007-02-23T16:58:16 *** bryan_ has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T16:58:30 *** sean__ has quit IRC 2007-02-23T16:58:36 *** dijix has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T16:59:15 *** bryan_ has quit IRC 2007-02-23T16:59:29 Hmm, Makefiles just reminded me of Prolog. 2007-02-23T16:59:48 Never noticed that similarity before. 2007-02-23T17:00:30 *** dcf has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T17:01:48 *** dijix has quit IRC 2007-02-23T17:01:52 Manifest.py: zat like eggs? *raises eyebrow* 2007-02-23T17:03:19 ErikRose: what session are you in? 2007-02-23T17:03:37 *** coderanger_ has quit IRC 2007-02-23T17:03:43 Imageworks 2007-02-23T17:03:53 wow how'd that summary get done so fast 2007-02-23T17:06:31 95 b bytes per second... jeez, what point is it that tcp can't maintain itself? 2007-02-23T17:07:57 95b per second should be no problem for keeping a session active 2007-02-23T17:08:20 *** tpollari has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T17:09:47 *** creiht has quit IRC 2007-02-23T17:09:54 *** benbangert has quit IRC 2007-02-23T17:10:05 A room of developers shouldn't be so easily amuse by eyecandy. And yet the imageworks video is pretty 2007-02-23T17:10:23 *** tpollari has quit IRC 2007-02-23T17:10:58 I think something like 50b/min would be a keep-alive packet each minute? 2007-02-23T17:11:04 *** thatch has quit IRC 2007-02-23T17:11:54 well, bytes per second is a bad metric for session keepalive... a better one is packets per second. 2007-02-23T17:12:13 You may also be able to tweak your TCP sliding window size 2007-02-23T17:12:31 if you're really getting latency based drops 2007-02-23T17:13:17 *** Six`oh`six has quit IRC 2007-02-23T17:13:22 I'm not getting drops. Takes me a minute for *screen* to update after I hit enter. Just impressed by the behavior Obviously knew tcp scaled well..didn't think it'd be quite so reliable in the face of this latency 2007-02-23T17:15:54 tempting to just recompile a custom kernel with a less friendly ip stack :) 2007-02-23T17:16:12 *** four0four has quit IRC 2007-02-23T17:16:59 no need to recompile, muck around with sysctrl in the net.ipv4.tcp* hiearchies should be enough to screw up your reliability 2007-02-23T17:17:31 there's something in sysctl that'll let me kill exponential tcp congestion backoff? 2007-02-23T17:17:32 *** pfein has quit IRC 2007-02-23T17:17:52 *** __jt__ has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T17:17:52 *** coderanger_ has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T17:18:00 *** Six`oh`six has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T17:18:20 net.ipv4.tcp_window_scaling = 1 2007-02-23T17:18:26 *** ecn has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T17:18:37 err. that's not congestion backoff per se 2007-02-23T17:19:15 close enough to kill your connections though. hehe 2007-02-23T17:19:51 here is the param you really want net.ipv4.tcp_congestion_control = bic 2007-02-23T17:20:28 whoo pit mining in action 2007-02-23T17:20:38 Pythons in Holes? 2007-02-23T17:20:43 hehe 2007-02-23T17:21:21 not having any issues with the .11a side of the network fwiw 2007-02-23T17:21:25 hrm, that's one I didn't know existed. Thanks wam 2007-02-23T17:21:41 no prob 2007-02-23T17:21:51 how i use .11a? :( 2007-02-23T17:21:52 pit truck tires cost $30k each 2007-02-23T17:22:04 you need an 802.11a card... 2007-02-23T17:22:16 *** rmunn has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T17:22:21 *** creiht has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T17:22:25 hmm, i don't think i have that 2007-02-23T17:22:51 Anyone in the Iterators talk? 2007-02-23T17:22:57 not likely... 11a never got really good traction in consumer... G came out and supplanted it. 2007-02-23T17:23:01 "Iterators help performance, because you keep the iterator's stack frame around: it's thus more efficient to ask for an item from an iterator than to call a function." 2007-02-23T17:23:05 True? I can hardly believe it. Doesn't next() have to be called? 2007-02-23T17:23:13 * ErikRose is 2007-02-23T17:23:23 ErikRose: Any good? 2007-02-23T17:23:25 *** sod has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T17:23:30 coderanger_: Yes, actually 2007-02-23T17:23:39 It's intermediate+. 2007-02-23T17:23:54 oh thats good 2007-02-23T17:24:05 Reminds me of Martelli's talk 2 years ago 2007-02-23T17:24:15 except about 20% slower 2007-02-23T17:24:20 (thank goodness) :-) 2007-02-23T17:24:23 heh. :-) 2007-02-23T17:24:25 I'm kind of disappointed in pyGame... I'm thinking of bailing. 2007-02-23T17:24:36 I think I remember Martelli's talk. 2007-02-23T17:24:41 There are seats here, wam. 2007-02-23T17:25:09 ugh graph theory (in the iterators talk) 2007-02-23T17:25:23 i want to learn more about lazy generation with iterators 2007-02-23T17:25:47 on my wayto iterators... 2007-02-23T17:26:06 Doesn't his call to sorted() "slurp it all up"? 2007-02-23T17:26:21 I can't imagine sorting by len() without computing all the len()s first. :-) 2007-02-23T17:26:25 i assume it would 2007-02-23T17:26:36 I think sorted() wraps a generator around its argument, but doesn't slurp. 2007-02-23T17:26:38 Just so he didn't put one over on me :-) 2007-02-23T17:26:49 Until the first call to its wrapped generator, at least... 2007-02-23T17:26:59 right, but then it slurps. THat's all I meant 2007-02-23T17:27:02 At which point you have to slurp it all to figure out what the first item will be. 2007-02-23T17:27:53 what is this... six sigma in iterators? 2007-02-23T17:27:59 "Every 6 seconds, some jackass equally distributes randomly occurring events across time." 2007-02-23T17:28:17 am I in the right room? 2007-02-23T17:28:27 I think he means a statistic, not the business thingy. 2007-02-23T17:28:28 oh... he's setting up an example.... 2007-02-23T17:28:44 Ah, apparently that's where the business thingy got its name. 2007-02-23T17:29:51 "vus is woot?" <-- Pygame presenters. 2007-02-23T17:31:20 *** pfein has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T17:33:51 *** ubernostrum has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T17:34:16 *** nerd_alert has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T17:36:53 Any of you Trac birds want to grab some dinner at dinnertime? 2007-02-23T17:39:09 ErikRose: We are meeting at 6:40 outside of bent tree 2007-02-23T17:39:21 Woot. :-D 2007-02-23T17:39:26 Going to some texmex place nearby thats supposed to be good 2007-02-23T17:39:32 then the BoF is after that 2007-02-23T17:39:35 *** RobZoneNet has left #pycon 2007-02-23T17:39:39 for extra tracy goodness ;-) 2007-02-23T17:39:52 any chicagoans around? 2007-02-23T17:40:14 coderanger_: Outside outdoors or outside in the hallway? 2007-02-23T17:40:24 Not sure 2007-02-23T17:40:28 hehe 2007-02-23T17:40:39 Well, I'll be there; don't leave without me. 2007-02-23T17:46:44 *** nerd_alert has quit IRC 2007-02-23T17:47:48 *** jvansickel has left #pycon 2007-02-23T17:48:20 *** sod has quit IRC 2007-02-23T17:48:48 *** creiht has quit IRC 2007-02-23T17:49:29 *** ErikRose has quit IRC 2007-02-23T17:49:52 *** ecn has left #pycon 2007-02-23T17:50:32 *** Six`oh`six has quit IRC 2007-02-23T17:51:14 *** creiht has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T17:51:47 *** greenfngrs has quit IRC 2007-02-23T17:52:11 *** _moshez has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T17:52:31 <_moshez> frooooop 2007-02-23T17:52:49 *** ErikRose has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T17:55:57 *** matt_c has quit IRC 2007-02-23T17:56:04 *** tpollari has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T17:56:43 *** shawn has quit IRC 2007-02-23T17:57:01 anyone in gp2x? 2007-02-23T17:57:10 _moshez: are you at pycon? 2007-02-23T17:57:17 wam_: I 2007-02-23T17:57:31 me too 2007-02-23T17:57:35 Apparently the GP2X is mainly used to run MAME. 2007-02-23T17:57:38 what was the price point? 2007-02-23T17:57:42 $190 2007-02-23T17:57:43 190USD 2007-02-23T17:57:48 thanks 2007-02-23T17:57:52 np 2007-02-23T17:57:53 i believe hacked ds or psp can do mame as well 2007-02-23T17:58:19 Anybody in Advocacy? 2007-02-23T17:58:24 I'm 4th table back on left hand side... second guy from aisle 2007-02-23T17:58:25 How is it? 2007-02-23T17:58:45 I'm the front table on the left. Guy in the white polo shirt 2007-02-23T17:59:03 I can totally see your IRC window. 2007-02-23T17:59:07 Totally. 2007-02-23T17:59:14 * ErikRose chuckles. 2007-02-23T17:59:15 *** sod has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T17:59:32 I looove reading on my Palm Pirate. 2007-02-23T17:59:52 I don't think ahead lately, though, so I end up reading the same 2 books every time I travel. ;-) 2007-02-23T18:01:08 *** greenfngrs has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T18:03:50 *** cbcunc has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T18:04:43 I don't think it can do all the mame stuff, just the older stuff. 2007-02-23T18:04:48 wam_: You have a UNX sticker on your lappie? 2007-02-23T18:04:56 yup 2007-02-23T18:05:07 woo 2007-02-23T18:06:05 I wonder why he parenethisized the integer constants. 2007-02-23T18:06:14 I missed that. 2007-02-23T18:08:05 *** crimsonK has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T18:09:13 techno music! 2007-02-23T18:09:41 *** nerd_alert has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T18:09:41 I was about to start dancing. 2007-02-23T18:09:43 *** ecn has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T18:09:44 *** pfein has quit IRC 2007-02-23T18:09:52 Has anybody sampled and used that yet? 2007-02-23T18:10:19 And can I get a phone with a custom, vanity protocol that'll play *my* favorite tune on somebody else's PA? 2007-02-23T18:10:36 I propose a hardware sprint. ;-) 2007-02-23T18:11:15 this is pretty amusing way to do a preso... 2007-02-23T18:11:53 Hmm. The gba emulator for the gp2x supposedly gets about 6fps... 2007-02-23T18:12:18 aye 2007-02-23T18:12:24 heh, call it "The Blair Witch" presentation method :) 2007-02-23T18:12:34 lol 2007-02-23T18:12:56 Somebody shout "We've gotta get outta these woods!" 2007-02-23T18:13:21 *** pjenvey has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T18:14:29 *** jesusphreak has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T18:15:56 Hack the planet! 2007-02-23T18:16:08 If I see another templating language, I'm going to run screaming. 2007-02-23T18:16:24 Can we get some more Gibsons in here? 2007-02-23T18:16:53 ErickRose: what templating language are you talking about? 2007-02-23T18:17:15 jesusphreak: It's not a particular one that bothers me; it's the profusion of them. 2007-02-23T18:17:26 I just went to check out Spyce, 2007-02-23T18:17:26 so, it has hardware limitations, os limitations, and no software... hmm... 2007-02-23T18:17:38 and it said "no new templating language" on the front page, 2007-02-23T18:17:51 I'm starting to think that I would rather hack a PSP... Didn't someone get Pygame running on that? 2007-02-23T18:17:57 but when you read Hello, World, what do you get but http://spyce.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/dump.spy?path=%2Fhome%2Fgroups%2Fs%2Fsp%2Fspyce%2Fcgi-bin%2Feg%2Fhello.spy 2007-02-23T18:18:55 *** cwells has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T18:18:57 *** ErikRose has quit IRC 2007-02-23T18:20:16 *** rmunn has quit IRC 2007-02-23T18:20:17 *** creiht has quit IRC 2007-02-23T18:24:26 *** Tv has quit IRC 2007-02-23T18:26:49 *** cwells has quit IRC 2007-02-23T18:26:49 *** nerd_alert has quit IRC 2007-02-23T18:27:25 *** crimsonK has left #pycon 2007-02-23T18:28:47 *** tpollari has quit IRC 2007-02-23T18:32:06 *** thatch has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T18:32:23 *** yello has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T18:39:13 *** creiht has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T18:39:50 *** tortoise has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T18:40:06 *** benbangert has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T18:41:03 *** ecn has quit IRC 2007-02-23T18:41:46 *** dcf has quit IRC 2007-02-23T18:42:23 *** dcf has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T18:42:29 *** ErikRose has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T18:43:21 *** mwh has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T18:43:24 *** rmunn has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T18:43:34 *** thatch has quit IRC 2007-02-23T18:45:59 Anybody found the Python Lab problems? 2007-02-23T18:46:09 http://us.pycon.org/TX2007/PythonLab still says "TBA" under Sample Problems. 2007-02-23T18:46:41 *** Tv has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T18:47:13 no sign of it under recent changes 2007-02-23T18:47:16 *** shawn has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T18:48:14 *** sod has quit IRC 2007-02-23T18:48:48 *** sod has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T18:49:53 *** benbangert has quit IRC 2007-02-23T18:50:25 *** benbangert_ has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T18:51:45 <_moshez> froop 2007-02-23T18:51:52 <_moshez> I am going up to my room 2007-02-23T18:51:52 *** jerry_s has quit IRC 2007-02-23T18:51:54 <_moshez> to rest up 2007-02-23T18:54:44 Enjoy. 2007-02-23T18:54:50 " 5-minute lightning talks with initial preference given to those who provide professional training or consulting services, to talk about their offerings or anything else. To fill out the 5-minute timeslots, it will then be opened up to others. " 2007-02-23T18:55:05 WTF why am I being sold things when I wanted some geek goodness? 2007-02-23T18:56:16 uh oh 2007-02-23T18:56:31 I can't believe they really are trying to pick up a laptop speaker with a microphone 2007-02-23T18:57:08 turn off html in your client please 2007-02-23T18:57:16 otherwise yes agreed :) 2007-02-23T18:57:36 *** pfein has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T18:57:53 *** yello has quit IRC 2007-02-23T18:59:09 *** jesusphreak has quit IRC 2007-02-23T19:00:07 how long are lightning talks? 2007-02-23T19:00:26 5 minutes generally 2007-02-23T19:00:42 right, i was just thinking that it was about time this one stopped :) 2007-02-23T19:01:09 yelloworange shirts laptop is running a 5:00 countdown timer for each 2007-02-23T19:01:23 *** __jt__ has quit IRC 2007-02-23T19:02:40 hmm... call me cynical, but he hasn't explained why we should care what his background is 2007-02-23T19:03:06 hahaha embedded python in forth 2007-02-23T19:03:08 thats sick 2007-02-23T19:03:16 *** coderanger_ has quit IRC 2007-02-23T19:03:19 There's not much lightning here. 2007-02-23T19:03:19 I used to work on a system so bad, I removed 30,000 lines, and nobody noticed. ;-) 2007-02-23T19:03:29 btw am I still ing? 2007-02-23T19:03:30 silly gaim 2007-02-23T19:03:33 2007-02-23T19:03:38 _moshez gave a lightning talk last year at EP about "how to give a bad lightning talk" 2007-02-23T19:03:43 Tv: no 2007-02-23T19:03:49 haha 2007-02-23T19:03:50 fonts gone, thanks! 2007-02-23T19:04:00 *** pobrien has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T19:04:07 silly gaim, if you paste stuff from a web page the formatting stays sticky 2007-02-23T19:04:15 until you paste the next thing _without_ formatting 2007-02-23T19:05:08 Ok... why is he keeping someone else from presenting something particularly interesting or even technical? 2007-02-23T19:05:27 I think I remember him playing ToonTown last year during one of the talks 2007-02-23T19:05:29 wam_: because he's a sponsor! 2007-02-23T19:05:41 oh... we're back to sponsor talks? 2007-02-23T19:05:53 wam_: apparently sponsor + people selling services 2007-02-23T19:05:53 I thought those were just at lunch 2007-02-23T19:05:56 shitty 2007-02-23T19:07:01 more services and random on this one 2007-02-23T19:07:20 no 2007-02-23T19:08:14 this one is at least interesting... learned something new that I might eventually consider using 2007-02-23T19:08:25 better than another persons bio. 2007-02-23T19:08:25 ? 2007-02-23T19:08:28 ewww.... MySQL 2007-02-23T19:09:01 * Tv gets a chuckle of "thousands of operations per second" 2007-02-23T19:09:11 last year's lightning talks were really cool... 2007-02-23T19:09:19 ndb might actually be able to handle it. 2007-02-23T19:09:23 last time I spent a lot of time of performance it was how many hundreds of thousands of operations we could do ;) 2007-02-23T19:09:28 not hitting the disk, though 2007-02-23T19:10:35 hehe thousands 2007-02-23T19:10:50 if he didn't know where to add it in django he didn't look.... django/db/backends/mysql/ would be the place 2007-02-23T19:11:33 the tech difficulty is just a bad video output on her laptop; she should use someone elses 2007-02-23T19:11:41 *** yello has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T19:12:11 AARGH more zenoss 2007-02-23T19:12:13 * Tv runs away 2007-02-23T19:12:15 *** yello is now known as jerry_s 2007-02-23T19:12:29 relax itll be over in 450 2007-02-23T19:12:34 heehehee 2007-02-23T19:12:39 Tv: Zenoss rocks! :) 2007-02-23T19:12:40 WTF is it with the marketing 2007-02-23T19:12:45 can we just get on with the geek stuff? 2007-02-23T19:12:49 *** ecn has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T19:12:49 hey, anyone have dinner plans? 2007-02-23T19:12:57 jerry_s: thai sounds good to me.. 2007-02-23T19:13:04 *** ErikRose changes topic to "Logs: http://weblion.psu.edu/pyconlogs/ Some notes: https://weblion.psu.edu/trac/weblion/wiki/PyCon" 2007-02-23T19:13:13 Tv: no idea, it's very strange 2007-02-23T19:13:48 tv: There's two of us up for Thai here. Where you wanna meet after this? 2007-02-23T19:13:57 WHY AM I HEARING ABOUT THEIR BUSINESS ENVIRONMENT 2007-02-23T19:13:59 *gaah* 2007-02-23T19:14:11 I think part of the sponsor package get lightening talk slot 2007-02-23T19:14:21 jerry_s: I'm probably 10th row straight from the speaker 2007-02-23T19:14:32 wam_: fsck that.. 2007-02-23T19:14:45 wam_: have an expo floor for sponsors 2007-02-23T19:14:57 yeah, wasn't this the guy that got booted from the lunch session? 2007-02-23T19:15:05 Tv: get up there and do one too... 2007-02-23T19:15:08 that was earlier 2007-02-23T19:15:11 no, that was the network guy 2007-02-23T19:15:15 ahh 2007-02-23T19:15:22 nice to see the net stats. 50% using 802.11a is great 2007-02-23T19:15:23 mmm 11a 2007-02-23T19:15:26 I'm not justifying it, just explaining it... 2007-02-23T19:15:58 tv: I must be about 5 rows in front of you. 2007-02-23T19:16:32 I wonder if my MacBook supports A. 2007-02-23T19:17:11 also note, the people presenting zenoss at SCALE5x had no clue about what GPL implies 2007-02-23T19:17:16 I wasn't very convinced. 2007-02-23T19:17:35 can i give him a hat and get a beer? 2007-02-23T19:17:47 i may change my lightning talk to "lightning talks are not adverts" 2007-02-23T19:17:51 what is this topic? 2007-02-23T19:18:14 haha "oops" 2007-02-23T19:18:24 tee hee, in jokes 2007-02-23T19:18:31 aha, a _real_ talk 2007-02-23T19:18:36 yay 2007-02-23T19:18:49 yay geek stuff! 2007-02-23T19:18:51 good good 2007-02-23T19:18:53 "...unless you just proved me wrong." Anticipation, I love it. :-) 2007-02-23T19:19:12 speaker is brett? 2007-02-23T19:19:17 yes 2007-02-23T19:19:28 7 feet tall, 1 foot wide 2007-02-23T19:19:53 *** _moshez has quit IRC 2007-02-23T19:22:48 misunderstood at first, yes kill tuple params 2007-02-23T19:23:32 spicey ajax 2007-02-23T19:23:44 TexMex ajax for dinner? 2007-02-23T19:23:47 ;) 2007-02-23T19:23:56 tip: nobody who wants to see slides sit anywhere but the middle 2007-02-23T19:24:02 Why don't people use actual valid XML? 2007-02-23T19:24:11 can of worms 2007-02-23T19:24:19 all these made-up namespace-looking things that aren't namespaces 2007-02-23T19:24:54 cos xml attracts enterprise wevils 2007-02-23T19:25:02 *** dijix has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T19:25:24 haha comprehensive least accurate 2007-02-23T19:26:02 geekgirl4christ?!? wtf 2007-02-23T19:26:38 * mwh can't read the slides, too far right 2007-02-23T19:30:51 ed's catholic podcasts? 2007-02-23T19:31:46 I know lots of orgs that publish events via wiki markup etc... I like the idea of parsing the HTML to get an event and stick it into a structured format such as XML. 2007-02-23T19:32:22 Joel Burton gives good training. 2007-02-23T19:32:48 wam_: Sun's done a lot of work toward parsing events out of prose. 2007-02-23T19:33:27 Yeah, but I'd probably have to use Java classes.... 2007-02-23T19:33:49 Whyzat? 2007-02-23T19:34:53 I see 'Sun' and some interesting goal (like 'parsing events out of prose') and more times than I can count it means CLASSPATH headaches and java version incompatibilities. 2007-02-23T19:35:31 Ah 2007-02-23T19:35:38 *** creiht has quit IRC 2007-02-23T19:35:43 *** ErikRose has quit IRC 2007-02-23T19:35:43 ...and the 27k xml config file. 2007-02-23T19:35:58 *** cbcunc has quit IRC 2007-02-23T19:36:10 which needs to modified with an eclipse form editor 2007-02-23T19:36:37 *** greenfngrs has quit IRC 2007-02-23T19:36:49 *** shawn has quit IRC 2007-02-23T19:37:00 tv: im coming looking for ya 2007-02-23T19:37:17 logging off... catch you guys later 2007-02-23T19:38:47 Thai food, anyone? 2007-02-23T19:38:55 meet in the middle of the room 2007-02-23T19:39:02 leaving in a minute or so 2007-02-23T19:39:17 *** Tv has quit IRC 2007-02-23T19:41:08 *** ecn has left #pycon 2007-02-23T19:42:26 *** benbangert_ has quit IRC 2007-02-23T19:43:35 *** pobrien has quit IRC 2007-02-23T19:45:32 *** sod has quit IRC 2007-02-23T19:46:10 *** rmunn has quit IRC 2007-02-23T19:49:47 what kind of dinner plans do folks have? 2007-02-23T19:56:04 *** jerry_s has quit IRC 2007-02-23T19:59:59 *** dcf has quit IRC 2007-02-23T20:00:15 *** wam_ has quit IRC 2007-02-23T20:03:30 *** dstanek has quit IRC 2007-02-23T20:07:10 *** mwh has quit IRC 2007-02-23T20:11:49 anyone going to AI BoF? 2007-02-23T20:13:41 *** tav has quit IRC 2007-02-23T20:15:32 *** tav has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T20:33:13 *** celluglyph has quit IRC 2007-02-23T20:34:24 *** pfein has quit IRC 2007-02-23T20:46:15 *** tpollari has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T21:05:37 *** jerry_s has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T21:07:47 *** Tv has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T21:12:38 *** Six`oh`six has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T21:13:09 *** creiht has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T21:13:43 *** pfein has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T21:25:34 *** ErikRose has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T21:27:32 *** thatch has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T21:31:34 *** creiht has quit IRC 2007-02-23T21:31:35 word on the street: setuptools no longer sucks! 2007-02-23T21:32:48 *** tav_ has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T21:39:20 *** tav has quit IRC 2007-02-23T21:50:32 olpc vmware image just wasn't worth the time 2007-02-23T21:50:46 it ran too fast for you? 2007-02-23T21:51:23 no, I got the zipfile finished when I left and the damned thing was corrupt! Trying again 2007-02-23T21:58:06 *** Tv has quit IRC 2007-02-23T22:01:01 *** coderanger_ has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T22:12:29 *** creiht has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T22:31:33 *** Six`oh`six has quit IRC 2007-02-23T22:37:53 well, time for me to drive home and get some sleep.. see you all in the morning 2007-02-23T22:38:13 *** thatch has quit IRC 2007-02-23T22:39:05 *** dijix has quit IRC 2007-02-23T22:42:48 *** pobrien has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T22:43:50 *** gldnspud has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T22:46:32 *** ErikRose has quit IRC 2007-02-23T22:50:17 *** tav_ has quit IRC 2007-02-23T22:51:20 *** jerry_s has quit IRC 2007-02-23T22:59:50 *** tav has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T23:00:23 *** pfein has quit IRC 2007-02-23T23:07:08 *** coderanger_ has quit IRC 2007-02-23T23:09:32 *** coderanger_ has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T23:20:08 *** benbangert has joined #pycon 2007-02-23T23:58:53 *** tav_ has joined #pycon